#FireCasey

[SkywalkerAC]

The all-NBA teams kind of are the definition of elite, for that given season at least.

[white men can't jump]

That's true but JV wasn't really highlighted by the team then either. I was actually a little disappointed with JV in this years playoffs. I thought playoff JV would show up but he didn't for whatever reason.

Well JV showed up to play, but as usual we didn't even try to really get him involved, and Casey shit himself in the face of a small team and JV ended up getting benched for no good reason.

It's pretty hard to repeat a performance when you're never given the chance.

Oh, and JV was highlighted at times during that playoff run, but was still able to dominate even when he wasn't. We struggled with Indiana more than we should have largely because we failed to highlight him, as Casey again went with his small/fast units too often, playing right into Indy's hands. Any time we did emphasize him, he killed the opposition. Bottom line is without him, we flame out in the 1st round against Indiana. He was still underutilized much of the 1st round.

We seem to be unable to simply find a balance where he can have a consistent role that will allow him to get comfortable. Can anyone really say that JV has felt comfortable in his situation since he started his NBA career? It's pretty much impossible to make progress in that kind of environment. It's a testament to JV that he still has been effective/efficient and hasn't demanded a trade or been a locker room problem.

*Obviously JV is capable of more than what we're using him for, and failing to get the most out of players has pretty much become Casey's MO. He can only "maximize" volume perimeter scorers, and it's pretty easy to argue that even these guys could be more effective team players in a better system.

[Fully]

Well JV showed up to play, but as usual we didn't even try to really get him involved, and Casey shit himself in the face of a small team and JV ended up getting benched for no good reason.

It's pretty hard to repeat a performance when you're never given the chance.

Oh, and JV was highlighted at times during that playoff run, but was still able to dominate even when he wasn't. We struggled with Indiana more than we should have largely because we failed to highlight him, as Casey again went with his small/fast units too often, playing right into Indy's hands. Any time we did emphasize him, he killed the opposition. Bottom line is without him, we flame out in the 1st round against Indiana. He was still underutilized much of the 1st round.

We seem to be unable to simply find a balance where he can have a consistent role that will allow him to get comfortable. Can anyone really say that JV has felt comfortable in his situation since he started his NBA career? It's pretty much impossible to make progress in that kind of environment. It's a testament to JV that he still has been effective/efficient and hasn't demanded a trade or been a locker room problem.

*Obviously JV is capable of more than what we're using him for, and failing to get the most out of players has pretty much become Casey's MO. He can only "maximize" volume perimeter scorers, and it's pretty easy to argue that even these guys could be more effective team players in a better system.

JV is a poor defensive player, and a limited offensive one. Casey has a zillion shortcomings you can dwell on - but the notion that we missed the boat on being a great team by not highlighting JV is flatly wrong. He plateaued the last couple of years save for a stretch of really good basketball in last years playoffs, and even regressed this season. I'm all for canning Casey and ushering in a new brand of Raptors basketball but if you think that either of those changes is going to mean that Jonas becomes a focal point then you haven't watched him play the last few seasons, or the rest of the NBA for that matter.

[psrs1]

DeMar definitely deserves praise for picking up the scoring slack while Lowry was out.

But it's hard to ignore DeRozan's +/- stats, especially during the playoffs. Worst on the team. That's not an anomaly. That says something about relying on DeRozan as the alpha male.

DeRozan's a useful player, but despite the yearly improvements to his game, there's still something preventing him from being a truly elite NBA player. Whether that's his poor defense, his lack of 3pt range, his over-reliance on FTs, etc., I honestly don't know.

He really needs to develop a consistent 3 point shot.

[white men can't jump]

JV is a poor defensive player, and a limited offensive one. Casey has a zillion shortcomings you can dwell on - but the notion that we missed the boat on being a great team by not highlighting JV is flatly wrong. He plateaued the last couple of years save for a stretch of really good basketball in last years playoffs, and even regressed this season. I'm all for canning Casey and ushering in a new brand of Raptors basketball but if you think that either of those changes is going to mean that Jonas becomes a focal point then you haven't watched him play the last few seasons, or the rest of the NBA for that matter.

But why did he regress this season? There's no physical/skills reason he should have. He was poised to take a step forward, but saw his role reduced for...whatever reason. I'm going with Casey's a dumb piece of shit.

I don't think JV is a saviour, and at literally NO FUCKING POINT IN ANY POST DID I SAY WE MISSED THE BOAT ON BEING GREAT BY NOT MAKING JV A FOCAL POINT. The original point was the only time we got to the ECF was largely because he was extremely effective and a focal point (as Superjudge said no team with JV as a focal point can make it past the 2nd round, which we have evidence to suggest that is completely false). But no player can be jerked around as much as he is and find a way to just "turn it on" when needed in the playoffs every time. By not highlighting him or find a truly consistent role for him, we're hurting ourselves by having a guy who has the talent to impact the game, but always plays on edge so ends up being a coin toss. Clearly he can help our playoff chances because the only time we made a dent in a playoff run was with him playing his best, which btw, even as we underutilized him against Indy, they were still forced to pay way too much attention to him which opened things up for everyone else. The point is that you shouldn't rely on one player to make you great unless that player is LeBron James (or MJ, other MJ, etc.). If you lack such a player, you need to maximize all your pieces, and we're very obviously not doing that.

It's not like he doesn't show up to play. Even as he got jerked around this playoffs, he was far more often than not trying to be aggressive and make his presence felt rather than being passive.

I don't think his D or "limited offence" (how many Cs have a more refined/effective offensive game than him? the list is a very short one) are the problem. I think the team culture starting with the coach have been the biggest issue for this team, as this team has not made any progress at all since they faced BKL in the playoffs. We've not developed any players well, including DeMar who is just as one-dimensional today as he was when Casey got here, just better in that one dimension. I guarantee you this team would be better if we'd seen DeMar's game actually expand the team would've had a much better chance to improve their playoff fortunes, even if that just meant more well-fought losses to the LeBrons.

Sure, it may be hard to beat GSW or CLE with JV or another true C in the lineup. But you're not beating GSW going small as they'll outgun you. And you're not beating CLE going small as they'll still be bigger than you with Thompson, Love and LeBron in the frontcourt, so you'll lose the battle inside and outside. You can still definitely punish all the wannabe small-ball teams who don't have the pieces GSW or CLE do if you know how to use your big man properly.

[JawsGT]

Well JV showed up to play, but as usual we didn't even try to really get him involved, and Casey shit himself in the face of a small team and JV ended up getting benched for no good reason.

It's pretty hard to repeat a performance when you're never given the chance.

Oh, and JV was highlighted at times during that playoff run, but was still able to dominate even when he wasn't. We struggled with Indiana more than we should have largely because we failed to highlight him, as Casey again went with his small/fast units too often, playing right into Indy's hands. Any time we did emphasize him, he killed the opposition. Bottom line is without him, we flame out in the 1st round against Indiana. He was still underutilized much of the 1st round.

We seem to be unable to simply find a balance where he can have a consistent role that will allow him to get comfortable. Can anyone really say that JV has felt comfortable in his situation since he started his NBA career? It's pretty much impossible to make progress in that kind of environment. It's a testament to JV that he still has been effective/efficient and hasn't demanded a trade or been a locker room problem.

*Obviously JV is capable of more than what we're using him for, and failing to get the most out of players has pretty much become Casey's MO. He can only "maximize" volume perimeter scorers, and it's pretty easy to argue that even these guys could be more effective team players in a better system.

I don't think we got the same JV this year as we did last. And the bold is kind of the point I was trying to make. He just didn't do that this postseason. He didn't punish teams despite not getting the ball in the post. He needs to dominate the glass regardless of his touches. I think last season he did that, and earned more opportunities to be highlighted offensively. Nonetheless, I agree with most of your points. The team can do more to find a better balance with JV's utilization. But it's tough because he has to be net positive without the usage, but his D is so sketchy that it's just as well to go with other options if he isn't dominating the paint.

[Fully]

But why did he regress this season? There's no physical/skills reason he should have. He was poised to take a step forward, but saw his role reduced for...whatever reason. I'm going with Casey's a dumb piece of shit.

I don't think JV is a saviour, and at literally NO FUCKING POINT IN ANY POST DID I SAY WE MISSED THE BOAT ON BEING GREAT BY NOT MAKING JV A FOCAL POINT. So get your head out of your tight ass. The original point was the only time we got to the ECF was largely because he was extremely effective and a focal point (as Superjudge said no team with JV as a focal point can make it past the 2nd round, which we have evidence to suggest that is completely false). But no player can be jerked around as much as he is and find a way to just "turn it on" when needed in the playoffs every time. By not highlighting him or find a truly consistent role for him, we're hurting ourselves by having a guy who has the talent to impact the game, but always plays on edge so ends up being a coin toss. Clearly he can help our playoff chances because the only time we made a dent in a playoff run was with him playing his best, which btw, even as we underutilized him against Indy, they were still forced to pay way too much attention to him which opened things up for everyone else. The point is that you shouldn't rely on one player to make you great unless that player is LeBron James (or MJ, other MJ, etc.). If you lack such a player, you need to maximize all your pieces, and we're very obviously not doing that.

It's not like he doesn't show up to play. Even as he got jerked around this playoffs, he was far more often than not trying to be aggressive and make his presence felt rather than being passive.

I don't think his D or "limited offence" (how many Cs have a more refined/effective offensive game than him? the list is a very short one) are the problem. I think the team culture starting with the coach have been the biggest issue for this team, as this team has not made any progress at all since they faced BKL in the playoffs. We've not developed any players well, including DeMar who is just as one-dimensional today as he was when Casey got here, just better in that one dimension. I guarantee you this team would be better if we'd seen DeMar's game actually expand the team would've had a much better chance to improve their playoff fortunes, even if that just meant more well-fought losses to the LeBrons.

Sure, it may be hard to beat GSW or CLE with JV or another true C in the lineup. But you're not beating GSW going small as they'll outgun you. And you're not beating CLE going small as they'll still be bigger than you with Thompson, Love and LeBron in the frontcourt, so you'll lose the battle inside and outside. You can still definitely punish all the wannabe small-ball teams who don't have the pieces GSW or CLE do if you know how to use your big man properly.

You're delusional about JV if you think there's a short list of big men with a more diverse offensive repertoire than him. I think you're delusional about him overall, so let's agree to disagree. JV regressed this season and his playing time/opportunities reflected that. Anything above that sound like excuse making.

[white men can't jump]

You're delusional about JV if you think there's a short list of big men with a more diverse offensive repertoire than him. I think you're delusional about him overall, so let's agree to disagree. JV regressed this season and his playing time/opportunities reflected that. Anything above that sound like excuse making.

A short list if you are counting guys who play big, so true Cs. That means you leave out guys like Davis or Jokic, who fit better in smaller/faster lineups. *They'd also take too much of a beating if they always have to play bigger guys.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Fully]

A short list if you are counting guys who play big, so true Cs. That means you leave out guys like Davis or Jokic, who fit better in smaller/faster lineups. *They'd also take too much of a beating if they always have to play bigger guys.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Jokic played 85% plus of his minutes at C this year, why wouldn't you count him? Davis played about 2/3 of his minutes at C as well. Although I guess your argument does get a little better if you just arbitrarily remove the centres that are better at offence than JV from the conversation.

[white men can't jump]

Jokic played 85% plus of his minutes at C this year, why wouldn't you count him? Davis played about 2/3 of his minutes at C as well. Although I guess your argument does get a little better if you just arbitrarily remove the centres that are better at offence than JV from the conversation.

They play C, but they are PFs. They "played C" by being the tallest guy on the court for their team while their team played small. That doesn't make them Cs. They also both struggled with injuries (coincidence?). It makes putting them in a discussion on Cs pointless, as you'd be comparing apples to oranges. They can't fill the role that bigger guys like Gasol, Towns, Cousins can, and vice-versa. That's not arbitrary, that's how you make comparisons that aren't meaningless.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[DanH]

One thing to note about JV's depressed offensive rebounding (ie his effectiveness when not used in the offence), is the scheme the Raptors used was to bail on offensive boards and get back to stop the transition game of the Bucks and Cavs. They didn't do the same thing with Indy and MIA last year. JV can dominate inside when he gets to fight one on one for rebounds. When he's fighting 4 opponents around him in the paint, he's not going to find much success.

Frankly I was more disappointed with his conversion rate inside - he missed a lot of bunnies in the paint that he usually hits in these playoffs. In any case, JV was still one of the most effective players on the team in these playoffs and this past regular season by WS. Just not really good like he was last year - he got dragged down by the team's collapse like everyone else this year instead of being the exception to the collapse like last year.

[LJ2]

Brad Stevens not looking great right now. Makes me wonder how much of a difference a new coach in Toronto would make.

[Fully]

They play C, but they are PFs. They "played C" by being the tallest guy on the court for their team while their team played small. That doesn't make them Cs. They also both struggled with injuries (coincidence?). It makes putting them in a discussion on Cs pointless, as you'd be comparing apples to oranges. They can't fill the role that bigger guys like Gasol, Towns, Cousins can, and vice-versa. That's not arbitrary, that's how you make comparisons that aren't meaningless.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Jokic was listed as a centre as a prospect before he got drafted. He's listed at centre everywhere you can find him now. He's played the overwhelming majority of his minutes at C since he got to the NBA. Like 95%. Calling him a power forward to fit your argument is practically the definition of an arbitrary determination.

[ogi]

Brad Stevens not looking great right now. Makes me wonder how much of a difference a new coach in Toronto would make.

Honestly it's not brad Stevens, it's not dwane Casey, it's lebron James just dominating.

[JimiCliff]

Honestly it's not brad Stevens, it's not dwane Casey, it's lebron James just dominating.

Casey, though, made one indefensible blunder by not starting Tucker the whole time. It's no coincidence that the only game that was the competitive was the one Tucker started.