TimW: Are Raptors Fans too Willing to Settle?

[OldSkoolCool]

Actually I'm pretty sure we set records rating this past season ... not sure though. Will look around after work.

Check out the split between Nov/Dec/Jan and Jan/Feb/March.

Would be interested in seeing if there was a change with our post xmas or post AS struggle

[OldSkoolCool]

Actually I'm pretty sure we set records rating this past season ... not sure though. Will look around after work.

Check out the split between Nov/Dec/Jan and Jan/Feb/March.

Would be interested in seeing if there was a change with our post xmas or post AS struggle

[DanH]

I love the certainty of the statement, but let's face it, a lot (i.e. most) of it is luck. Smart people, with tons of money, hard work, immaculate diligence and great intentions have been trying to draft that superstar for decades. Nobody's trying to draft a bust. Some get it right, some don't. Some teams actually do draft that superstar and mess up their development or trade that player.

I don't understand what you are arguing. Did I say that drafting a superstar was easily done? No, I just said that if the goal is to attract free agents, the most likely way for a team with our location and history to get themselves into a free-agent-attracting position is to draft a superstar. Obviously you have to be bad to have a decent chance at that, and very good at drafting and lucky to boot to actually pull it off. But it seems to me like that is far less of a stretch than assuming a true superstar would ever sign here in free agency or be traded here (most cases are like Melo, forcing his way to a specific location - Harden situations happen almost never).

[mcHAPPY]

C'mon, Matt, I think you're mis-interpreting where I'm coming from, as I'm the last person who'd ever want to censor anybody on anything. I'm not even disagreeing with some of the points, either, other than, there's a high probability (i.e. 24/30), that your team doesn't make the conference finals year-after-year, regardless of how perfectly you execute any franchise building strategy, including those suggested by Tim and others.

But, calling out fans who have zero control over any of those moves that Tim is suggesting is asinine. Why not direct his anger/frustration to those in power (e.g. MLSE), or educate the fans on some ways that their voices could actually be heard to make a difference. I get the franchise building part, but putting the blame on the fans, I can't agree with.

Let's take the flip-side argument, for example. What would happen if fans actually did withdraw their support of the team to exercise our implied influence over how this franchise is run? I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest you could be looking at MLSE withdrawing resources and potentially selling the team. Would everybody be okay with that?

I did misinterpret to some extent. Apologies.

[mcHAPPY]

Heh, it's what Bill Simmons built his entire career on - he actually wrote and spoke from the fan perspective, including all the armchair quarterbacking and armchair GM'ing that goes along with it.

Re: OP - I agree the Raps really haven't gotten serious about tearing things apart, ever, and have always tried to build on what they already have. It is a good point that over 20 years, this approach has led to being a bottom 3 NBA franchise over that period. With one year left on DD's contract, a couple solid players on reasonable contracts, a couple raw prospects, and tons of cap space opening up in the near future, it's easy to argue that this is a good time to tear things apart. On the other hand, trying to move forward is still possible with good asset and cap management. This history is descriptive and not necessarily prescriptive. I can understand both sides, but am leaning towards tearing the roster apart since (seriously) Casey is here for another season. If there had been a coaching change, I would have thought you could take the next season to see if DD et al would perform differently/better under a new coach and system, but now that that's delayed you may as well start re-working the roster. I don't see any point in keeping the coach and roster from this last year's flame out for another season. I guess unless you're just waiting for cap space and a coach to become available in 2016. But if this year is going to be a throw-away, then it's a good time to aim for the lottery.

The only time they were serious about building through draft was with Isiah Thomas and first few years.

For all his shit, he really is/was a good eye for talent in the draft.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had he stayed.

That was some crazy talent he amassed in a short window.

But since him, yes, absolutely, teams always tried to win with what they had and it lead to VC leaving, Bosh years, AB/accelerating, and now.

What I wouldn't give to go back to the late 90s and get Isiah to win the majority ownership war.

[JWash]

Building a championship team is just as much about luck as it is about skill.

One example I really like to point to is the Rockets (not the current ones, the Hakeem ones). I mean the Rockets were just in the right place at the right time in 1994. Put the perfect collection of guys around Hakeem and got to the finals. But they struggled to beat the Knicks in 7. If that's Jordan and Pippen instead, they likely don't win and then you probably don't have Clyde Drexler clamoring to join for another run in 1995.

[GarbageTime]

we live in a world where being a real fan is actually not being a fan.

Whats not being a real fan?

Not paying a team for a product you don't want or enjoy? Holding back $s until a team meets ones expectations or preferences?

If Nabisco starts making Oreos with glass shards in them, and I refuse to buy Oreos until they no come with glass shards... am I not a 'real fan' of Oreos either? A real fan of Oreos would eat the glass shards... and like them to!

If more fans stopped blindly paying (directly and indirectly) for the product MLSE provides... maybe, just maybe, they'd start giving us a product we wanted rather than the one we'll pay for. Those, after all, are not the same things.

[raptors999]

Whats not being a real fan?

Not paying a team for a product you don't want or enjoy? Holding back $s until a team meets ones expectations or preferences?

If Nabisco starts making Oreos with glass shards in them, and I refuse to buy Oreos until they no come with glass shards... am I not a 'real fan' of Oreos either? A real fan of Oreos would eat the glass shards... and like them to!

If more fans stopped blindly paying (directly and indirectly) for the product MLSE provides... maybe, just maybe, they'd start giving us a product we wanted rather than the one we'll pay for. Those, after all, are not the same things.

Chances of getting a generational talent is low. While the Raptors wait they should fire the dimwit coach and at least put together a decent scheme to tide the fan base over. It isnt about winning but not putting out shit and saying the roster isn't good so its a free for all

[slaw]

Let me get this straight.

Posters are now calling for a boycott of their team after: the two most successful seasons in franchise history; after MLSE has spent tens of millions of dollars building a state of the art practice facility, buying a D-League team, and paying huge dollars for a new GM; and getting the 2016 All-Star Game; because, well, why? You don't like the fact management won't do what you want with the roster? Didn't fire the coach? Won't blow up the team? Doesn't appreciate how ingenious your totally original plan to build through the draft is? Beyond ridiculous.

[Bear]

Let me get this straight.

Posters are now calling for a boycott of their team after: the two most successful seasons in franchise history; after MLSE has spent tens of millions of dollars building a state of the art practice facility, buying a D-League team, and paying huge dollars for a new GM; and getting the 2016 All-Star Game; because, well, why? You don't like the fact management won't do what you want with the roster? Didn't fire the coach? Won't blow up the team? Doesn't appreciate how ingenious your totally original plan to build through the draft is? Beyond ridiculous.

the bold was all sound business choices and really has less to do with the team and more to do with the business.

Imagine this, you have a 1971 Marcos Mantis M70 with 3,000,000 miles on it. Driven by some grandma who never went above 50 mph. You take it out on the 401, and its rattling, clanking, smoking, overheating, knocking and pinging and shifting really hard, but you got the speed up to 65mph.

You have the opportunity to trade this car in on a brand new one, gonna have 3 or 4 years of payments on it, but the car is built better, is far more durable, better on gas, faster, way more fun to drive.

What you are doing is basically advocating keeping the old 71 marcos m70 and putting lots of money into it "because it just went faster than it ever has!"

[Mess]

the bold was all sound business choices and really has less to do with the team and more to do with the business.

Imagine this, you have a 1971 Marcos Mantis M70 with 3,000,000 miles on it. Driven by some grandma who never went above 50 mph. You take it out on the 401, and its rattling, clanking, smoking, overheating, knocking and pinging and shifting really hard, but you got the speed up to 65mph.

You have the opportunity to trade this car in on a brand new one, gonna have 3 or 4 years of payments on it, but the car is built better, is far more durable, better on gas, faster, way more fun to drive.

What you are doing is basically advocating keeping the old 71 marcos m70 and putting lots of money into it "because it just went faster than it ever has!"

I think it's more accurate to say you'd be making payments for 3-4 years before you actually find out how fast the new car will be able to go. You just have to trust the salesman that it will be an upgrade over the hilariously dilapidated old car.

But the new car does comes with a warranty - if your new car isn't any faster than the old one, you can trade just trade it in for another new car that also may or not be faster.

[special1]

the bold was all sound business choices and really has less to do with the team and more to do with the business.

Imagine this, you have a 1971 Marcos Mantis M70 with 3,000,000 miles on it. Driven by some grandma who never went above 50 mph. You take it out on the 401, and its rattling, clanking, smoking, overheating, knocking and pinging and shifting really hard, but you got the speed up to 65mph.

You have the opportunity to trade this car in on a brand new one, gonna have 3 or 4 years of payments on it, but the car is built better, is far more durable, better on gas, faster, way more fun to drive.

What you are doing is basically advocating keeping the old 71 marcos m70 and putting lots of money into it "because it just went faster than it ever has!"

People really need to stop with the silly analogies....

Comparing a team that won a franchise record of games in back to back seasons (only together for a couple years) to an old crusty car....then you say this new car is built better, far more durable, better on gas, faster, and way more fun to drive. What are you talking about? What are you suggesting? I'm guessing this new car is the "new team"? Sign me up if you can guarantee all those things.

Why didn't we think of this before??.....All we have to do is trade our piece of shit car (players/coaches) for this awesome new team/coach. It's all so easy!

[slaw]

the bold was all sound business choices and really has less to do with the team and more to do with the business.

Imagine this, you have a 1971 Marcos Mantis M70 with 3,000,000 miles on it. Driven by some grandma who never went above 50 mph. You take it out on the 401, and its rattling, clanking, smoking, overheating, knocking and pinging and shifting really hard, but you got the speed up to 65mph.

You have the opportunity to trade this car in on a brand new one, gonna have 3 or 4 years of payments on it, but the car is built better, is far more durable, better on gas, faster, way more fun to drive.

What you are doing is basically advocating keeping the old 71 marcos m70 and putting lots of money into it "because it just went faster than it ever has!"

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

[Mediumcore]

Let me get this straight.

Posters are now calling for a boycott of their team after: the two most successful seasons in franchise history; after MLSE has spent tens of millions of dollars building a state of the art practice facility, buying a D-League team, and paying huge dollars for a new GM; and getting the 2016 All-Star Game; because, well, why? You don't like the fact management won't do what you want with the roster? Didn't fire the coach? Won't blow up the team? Doesn't appreciate how ingenious your totally original plan to build through the draft is? Beyond ridiculous.

+1000

I don't hand out +1's too often, so I'm giving them all to you Slaw. All kinds of crazy on this site these days.

[GarbageTime]

Let me get this straight.

Posters are now calling for a boycott of their team after: the two most successful seasons in franchise history; after MLSE has spent tens of millions of dollars building a state of the art practice facility, buying a D-League team, and paying huge dollars for a new GM; and getting the 2016 All-Star Game; because, well, why? You don't like the fact management won't do what you want with the roster? Didn't fire the coach? Won't blow up the team? Doesn't appreciate how ingenious your totally original plan to build through the draft is? Beyond ridiculous.

I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not calling for a "boycott" (rather just pointing out that calling someone "not a real fan" because they may choose to).

That said:

1) Two most successful seasons in franchise history is not only ridiculously low bar given how terrible the east and atlantic are, but also based on the lack of success so far. I don't even know how at this point in time the teams so called "success" over the last two years is even given merit as meaning anything other than an insult to this team and its history.

2) Raptors payed more for Colangelo.. if paying a GM matters then the Raptors down graded on a $ basis.

3) all star game? So what? Does the league give a team some sort of advantage for holding the all star game? Does holding the allstar game cause players to play better or win more games?

4) state of the art facility? Does that win a team games?

5) D-league team... its the D-league..... # of (former) D-league players who contribute meaningfully to an NBA franchise? Maybe a handful? This is just a Colangelo-esq red herring by TL, Masai and MLSE to give fans false hope in an event with marginal benefit.

Whats 'ridiculous' (besides the lame arguments above justifying the team and/or its direction) is not recognizing that, if one is not happy as a consumer, that they shouldn't be spending on the product or service. You may be content with whats happening here... and thats fine. But others are not. So why would they?