TimW: Are Raptors Fans too Willing to Settle?

[tDotted]

But anyway, didn't click on the link and i'm too lazy to read the whole thing but i like this line a lot: “Before the Raptors can build a championship-contending team, they have to become a true contender for free agents’ services,” Adande wrote.

How do you do that? win. This goes back to my 'building a winning culture' rant last week lol. Free Agents wants to come to a team that cares about winning not a team that cares about ping pong balls.

A big move in either direction (quick tank or win now) changes the way people view you as a team. Don't think FAs will be lining up to play in Minny or Orlando soon?

[mcHAPPY]

The reality is free agents want to come to teams with superstars, not teams that win a few games and hit a wall in the playoffs.

And if you accept that it is an extraordinary long shot to sign a superstar in free agency (when you don't already have one) and that superstar trades are very rare (and you need crazy assets to make it happen), then drafting that superstar is the quickest route to being able to sign free agents. And the cap space that comes with a rebuild doesn't hurt either.

That is what it is all about.

Everyone agrees that the NBA is a star league.

So it comes down to: do you think the Raptors are going to be able to win without a superstar or do you think the Raptors are going to sign a superstar?

There has really only been 1 team to win a championship in the last 30 years without a superstar - 2004 Pistons.

Is anyone aware of a superstar who went to a team without a superstar in free agency? Shaq to LA is all I've got.




Anyways, I really liked CRF post as well.

[octothorp]

I suspect that TimW is misrepresenting a bunch of arguments here and using them as strawmen. I've honestly never met a Raptors fan who believes that the Raptors can never win a title, or who believes that winning a couple playoff rounds should be the end goal of the team, (although there are those who believe it's unlikely the Raptors will win a title, and those who believe that winning multiple playoff rounds should be a short-term goal on the way to a championship). And those I've conversed with (mostly on here) who believe we should keep our good players seem to believe that keeping those players is the best path to winning, and thus recruiting even better players.

Winning a championship in the NBA is a long-odds game; you can't cheat the odds, but you can beat them. One team does it every year. Ride a non-superstar team to a championship? Unlikely. Successfully tank and draft a superstar? Unlikely. Recruit a superstar in free agency? Unlikely. Win a championship with one superstar? Unlikely. Parlay a single superstar and a non-destination market in additional superstars? Unlikely. There's plenty of reason to debate all of these options, but lets not pretend any of them are a sure-fire ticket to a finals appearance.

[Mess]

Hey now, give Tim W some credit. He talked to some random person on twitter who used these arguments. That's quality journalism.

I just don't agree with the assumption that the Toronto fans who would prefer to keep together a 49 win team with fairly decent flexibility going forward, have given up on winning a championship. I agree that there is no obvious, straightforward, risk-free path to adding the necessary talent that the Raptors need to contend.

But I think it's a little absurd that the counter-argument to that is essentially to "draft another Lebron or Anthony Davis." I mean, I get the appeal. It's an incredibly simple concept, theoretically easier to accomplish (losing is easier than winning after all), and provides an attractively optimistic hope-fueled future.

But hey, if Masai is able to trade for 3 top 10 picks in this draft I may reconsider. I'll also kiss his ass, buy a fucking Blackberry and pay his next fine for crude language (if he's still employed by the Raptors the next time they make the playoffs - which, along with everything else in this paragraph, is not very likely).

[Fully]

What a mess of an article.

[golden]

The reality is free agents want to come to teams with superstars, not teams that win a few games and hit a wall in the playoffs.

And if you accept that it is an extraordinary long shot to sign a superstar in free agency (when you don't already have one) and that superstar trades are very rare (and you need crazy assets to make it happen), then drafting that superstar is the quickest route to being able to sign free agents. And the cap space that comes with a rebuild doesn't hurt either.

I love the certainty of the statement, but let's face it, a lot (i.e. most) of it is luck. Smart people, with tons of money, hard work, immaculate diligence and great intentions have been trying to draft that superstar for decades. Nobody's trying to draft a bust. Some get it right, some don't. Some teams actually do draft that superstar and mess up their development or trade that player.

[slaw]

Yet another tendentious article from TimW shooting down straw men in his typical condescending tone. "Breaking his heart". Yeesh. Hey Tim, if you're such a delicate flower that your heart is broken by Raptor fans disagreeing with you perhaps you need to toughen up a bit big guy.

The Toronto "city of losers" nonsense is yet more tired navel gazing from a media complex in that city which suffers from a particularly virulent strain of arrogant elitism, coupled with an overpowering sense of insecurity. The best recent example of this is Cathal Kelly's column about the women's world cup starting in Edmonton, wherein, he compares Toronto to London and Berlin all the while stamping his feet and screaming, 'Pick me! Pick me! I'm oh so good and oh so wonderful! Pick me!!! Please, pretty please, PICK ME!!! Why won't the pretty girls ever PICK ME!!!'.

[distorsun]

YOU NEED A STUD TO BUILD AROUND.
I DON'T SEE ANYONE WINNING WITHOUT IT.

1. draft your stud / trade for a STUD in the making (H. Barnes)
(you will not get a top tier player without selling the farm)
2. draft and develp some complementary players
3. make some trades

----

The reality is free agents want to come to teams with superstars, not teams that win a few games and hit a wall in the playoffs.

And if you accept that it is an extraordinary long shot to sign a superstar in free agency (when you don't already have one) and that superstar trades are very rare (and you need crazy assets to make it happen), then drafting that superstar is the quickest route to being able to sign free agents. And the cap space that comes with a rebuild doesn't hurt either.

[magoon]

The Toronto "city of losers" nonsense is yet more tired navel gazing from a media complex in that city which suffers from a particularly virulent strain of arrogant elitism, coupled with an overpowering sense of insecurity. The best recent example of this is Cathal Kelly's column about the women's world cup starting in Edmonton, wherein, he compares Toronto to London and Berlin all the while stamping his feet and screaming, 'Pick me! Pick me! I'm oh so good and oh so wonderful! Pick me!!! Please, pretty please, PICK ME!!! Why won't the pretty girls ever PICK ME!!!'.

That's not really a fair characterization of Kelly's column at all, considering his major point was that Toronto, the biggest and most important city in Canada, and the only one with a pro-level real-turf soccer stadium, didn't get any World Cup games.

We're not playing second fiddle to London and Berlin, we're playing, like, seventh fiddle to fucking Moncton - partially because all the shitty-ass stadiums elsewhere in Canada didn't want to get shown up by their terrible artificial turf which the players absolutely loathe (so much so that Moncton Stadium was forced to refinish their real turf with artificial turf so that the games would be consistently hampered), and partially because the Pan Am Games organizers didn't want to get shown up by an international sports event people actually care about.

[golden]

Yet another tendentious article from TimW shooting down straw men in his typical condescending tone. "Breaking his heart". Yeesh. Hey Tim, if you're such a delicate flower that your heart is broken by Raptor fans disagreeing with you perhaps you need to toughen up a bit big guy.

The Toronto "city of losers" nonsense is yet more tired navel gazing from a media complex in that city which suffers from a particularly virulent strain of arrogant elitism, coupled with an overpowering sense of insecurity. The best recent example of this is Cathal Kelly's column about the women's world cup starting in Edmonton, wherein, he compares Toronto to London and Berlin all the while stamping his feet and screaming, 'Pick me! Pick me! I'm oh so good and oh so wonderful! Pick me!!! Please, pretty please, PICK ME!!! Why won't the pretty girls ever PICK ME!!!'.

Yeah, I don't really get the idea of going after the sports fans of any particular city, unless you're trolling for clicks. It's a different story if you're starting a rallying cry for a petition to MLSE (which was tried before... remember that hilarious Open Letter to Masai, that he actually read and then proceeded to trade Rudy Gay....).

But basically, the fans have zero control over personnel moves and franchise philosophical decisions, so what's the point in calling us everybody out? That's a name-calling thread more suited to the forums, I would think. It makes me really question what's going on here at this RR site, when a troll article like that becomes a feature?

[McRealistic]

I love the certainty of the statement, but let's face it, a lot (i.e. most) of it is luck. Smart people, with tons of money, hard work, immaculate diligence and great intentions have been trying to draft that superstar for decades. Nobody's trying to draft a bust. Some get it right, some don't. Some teams actually do draft that superstar and mess up their development or trade that player.

I wish I could like this post 100 times. Add to all that the fact that we will not be drafting a top 4 in this year or probably the next few years after, makes this proposal even harder than some fans here make it sound.

You are 100% right about the "certainty of the statement". Right now, reading RR, you get the sense that the ONLY way and more importantly, the SURE way is to trade DD and tank, and magically, we will get our super star from the draft and be in our way to the NBA championship game in 2-4 years.

[OldSkoolCool]

My interpretation of the article:

"Stop using bad excuses to support teams that aren't good enough to win anything meaningful, and not bad enough to draft a superstar player that will take us there. Suck it up and make the tough, committed call to become a great team for the first time in franchise history"

$0.02

[golden]

My interpretation of the article:

"Stop using bad excuses to support teams that aren't good enough to win anything meaningful, and not bad enough to draft a superstar player that will take us there. Suck it up and make the tough, committed call to become a great team for the first time in franchise history"

$0.02

Problem is, we aren't the ones making the call. I'd have much less problem with the article if he addressed it to MLSE or Masai, who are actually in control of those things. We, as fans, are powerless. Is he advocating boycotting games, stop buying jerseys and switching off the games on TV? If so, then this could/should have been a rallying cry and call-to-action type of article, rather than a petty "you fans are all losers" smug finger-wag / whine.

[mcHAPPY]

Problem is, we aren't the ones making the call. I'd have much less problem with the article if he addressed it to MLSE or Masai, who are actually in control of those things. We, as fans, are powerless. Is he advocating boycotting games, stop buying jerseys and switching off the games on TV? If so, then this could/should have been a rallying cry and call-to-action type of article, rather than a petty "you fans are all losers" smug finger-wag / whine.

So fans can't discuss how they want the franchise to build?

Jeez Louise.

I get it is a topic that has been beat to death but I tire of the arguments such as....

"Problem is we can't put the ball in the net...."
"Problem is we can't set the lineups...."
"Problem is we don't know what goes on in the locker room...."
"Problem is we don't know as much as them...."
"Problem is we don't know what guys are available and true worth...."
"Problem is we aren't making the decisions...."


All those are givens.

It is a fan forum and website.

What else are we going to do but share our worthless and meaningless opinions?

[golden]

So fans can't discuss how they want the franchise to build?

Jeez Louise.

I get it is a topic that has been beat to death but I tire of the arguments such as....

"Problem is we can't put the ball in the net...."
"Problem is we can't set the lineups...."
"Problem is we don't know what goes on in the locker room...."
"Problem is we don't know as much as them...."
"Problem is we don't know what guys are available and true worth...."
"Problem is we aren't making the decisions...."


All those are givens.

It is a fan forum and website.

What else are we going to do but share our worthless and meaningless opinions?

C'mon, Matt, I think you're mis-interpreting where I'm coming from, as I'm the last person who'd ever want to censor anybody on anything. I'm not even disagreeing with some of the points, either, other than, there's a high probability (i.e. 24/30), that your team doesn't make the conference finals year-after-year, regardless of how perfectly you execute any franchise building strategy, including those suggested by Tim and others.

But, calling out fans who have zero control over any of those moves that Tim is suggesting is asinine. Why not direct his anger/frustration to those in power (e.g. MLSE), or educate the fans on some ways that their voices could actually be heard to make a difference. I get the franchise building part, but putting the blame on the fans, I can't agree with.

Let's take the flip-side argument, for example. What would happen if fans actually did withdraw their support of the team to exercise our implied influence over how this franchise is run? I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest you could be looking at MLSE withdrawing resources and potentially selling the team. Would everybody be okay with that?