Is Casey right? Is the day of the C over??

[Joey]

Although harsh, it isn't unfair.

Regardless, if people have a differing opinion, we should encourage the ensuing debate. There is obviously merit to the idea that Small Ball is, and can be, effective in the right circumstances.

It just drives me nuts when Casey tries to play "me too" with the complete wrong personel to do it with. And compounds on that by having the complete wrong system for JV to thrive in, and then tries to justify either end with "the center is gone".

[golden]

Keeping with the idiocy theme, which is quite appropriate in this context - suppose your goal was actually to trade JV? What purpose would this statement serve, other than to seriously undermine his value on the trade market? Wouldn't Masai be pissed about that? JV's agent has got to be steaming.

There's really only 2 conclusions: (1) Casey's being idiotic just covering his ass & to hell with the collateral damage to the franchise or (2) Masai is also in on it and the Raps want to sign JV to a low-ball extension.

[Just Is]

Keeping with the idiocy theme, which is quite appropriate in this context - suppose your goal was actually to trade JV? What purpose would this statement serve, other than to seriously undermine his value on the trade market? Wouldn't Masai be pissed about that? JV's agent has got to be steaming.

There's really only 2 conclusions: (1) Casey's being idiotic just covering his ass & to hell with the collateral damage to the franchise or (2) Masai is also in on it and the Raps want to sign JV to a low-ball extension.

Was he wearing his Championship ring at the time? I think it's (1) in either case. His job is completely safe and he was getting criticized for this throughout the season; he's trying to save his ass.

If I'm JV; I'm sincerely considering to sign the QO.

[McRealistic]

Regardless, if people have a differing opinion, we should encourage the ensuing debate. There is obviously merit to the idea that Small Ball is, and can be, effective in the right circumstances.

Small ball just won the NBA finals and fans around here are calling people who believe in small ball an Idiots !!! It is really sad.

As far as the main page article and as you mentioned here, there are still room for Big Cs in this league. These big Cs can still dominate in paint and enforce their will. The article in the main page pointed to it and clearly explained how.

The problem starts on the defensive end and where your centre does not have the lateral quickness and is not able to chase and guard the smaller player.

I think the days of Heavy, slow, non-mobile, Cs is gone in NBA but guys like DCs, AD who are athletic, quick, fast, mobile, have a foot work will still dominate the game.

[Just Is]

Small ball just won the NBA finals and fans around here are calling people who believe in small ball an Idiots !!! It is really sad.

As far as the main page article and as you mentioned here, there are still room for Big Cs in this league. These big Cs can still dominate in paint and enforce their will. The article in the main page pointed to it and clearly explained how.

The problem starts on the defensive end and where your centre does not have the lateral quickness and is not able to chase and guard the smaller player.

I think the days of Heavy, slow, non-mobile, Cs is gone in NBA but guys like DCs, AD who are athletic, quick, fast, mobile, have a foot work will still dominate the game.

I might have the dates off but I'm pretty sure San Antonio won the title last year and I'm also pretty sure that Duncan played a pretty big role in that run.

And that GS wasn't able to go small against the Memphis or Houston.

Context of what happened in the finals REALLY needs to be considered. It's not about whether or not small ball is a good or bad thing (there are various definitions on what even constitutes small ball); it's about looking at it in the actual context.

[McRealistic]

I might have the dates off but I'm pretty sure San Antonio won the title last week and I'm also pretty sure that Duncan played a pretty big role in that run.

And that GS wasn't able to go small against the Memphis or Houston.

Context of what happened in the finals REALLY needs to be considered. It's not about whether or not small ball is a good or bad thing (there are various definitions on what even constitutes small ball); it's about looking at it in the actual context.

Did I say Duncan did not play a role ? How about the smalls in that team including the MVP ( KL), Green, Parker, Giniobli and ...
Again, if you read the front page article, he clearly explains what kind of Cs can still work and why JV is going to have difficulty.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Small ball just won the NBA finals and fans around here are calling people who believe in small ball an Idiots !!! It is really sad.

As far as the main page article and as you mentioned here, there are still room for Big Cs in this league. These big Cs can still dominate in paint and enforce their will. The article in the main page pointed to it and clearly explained how.

The problem starts on the defensive end and where your centre does not have the lateral quickness and is not able to chase and guard the smaller player.

I think the days of Heavy, slow, non-mobile, Cs is gone in NBA but guys like DCs, AD who are athletic, quick, fast, mobile, have a foot work will still dominate the game.

To be clear, small ball did NOT win the NBA championship. Golden State won the championship.

29 other NBA teams could play small ball against GS and they'd annihilate them, since every one of those teams would be playing right into GS's hands. When a team is so effective playing a particular way, you're doomed to fail if your only approach is to play the same way.

If a fat kid and skinny kid are having a fight, and the skinny kid is effective using his speed to run in for a quick punch and then run away, it would be dumb for the fat kid to try and beat the skinny kid at his own game; he'd get tired, fall over and the skinny kid could pummel him on the ground. If you're the fat kid, you grab the skinny kid and sit on him. Use the skills you have and play to your strength.

[golden]

Small ball just won the NBA finals and fans around here are calling people who believe in small ball an Idiots !!! It is really sad.

As far as the main page article and as you mentioned here, there are still room for Big Cs in this league. These big Cs can still dominate in paint and enforce their will. The article in the main page pointed to it and clearly explained how.

The problem starts on the defensive end and where your centre does not have the lateral quickness and is not able to chase and guard the smaller player.

I think the days of Heavy, slow, non-mobile, Cs is gone in NBA but guys like DCs, AD who are athletic, quick, fast, mobile, have a foot work will still dominate the game.

I know this should be pretty obvious, but "small ball", in and of itself, did not win the NBA finals. Shooting, ball-movement, defensive switching, depth, coaching, Steph Curry, lack of injuries, previous rounds playing big ball, etc..., etc..., etc.., etc..., won the NBA finals. Small ball as a short term tactical adjustment is just one of the many factors that went into a successful season by GSW.

And let's not forget the biggest factor - luck. In every playoff series, GSW faced an injury to a key player and 2 in the finals.

[McRealistic]

If a fat kid and skinny kid are having a fight, and the skinny kid is effective using his speed to run in for a quick punch and then run away, it would be dumb for the fat kid to try and beat the skinny kid at his own game; .

Did you read the front page article because it explains it very clearly and much better I can. The example you used here clearly shows that you either did not read that article, or did not understand it.

At the end of the game, it comes down to which team ( small ball vs big C) can force the other team to play their style of the game. This comes down to creating mismatches in BOTH offensive and defensive ends.

Article clerkly explained in detail why a Centre that is not mobile, is not quick, is not a good passer and is not able to handle quick double teams will have problems against the smaller team and why a mobile, quick, athletic C will be able to still force the other team out of their game plan.

[McRealistic]

Right from the front page article:

"In truth, “smallball” has become a nebulous term without much meaning. It’s used to encompass a multitude of sins, but at its essence, smallball is a philosophy based around leveraging scoring threats. Use shooting to create space, use movement to contort defenses and use passing to find a better shot. It’s not necessarily about the death of centers, rise of stretch-fours, importance 3-point shooting or playing “positionless basketball” with lineup of long-armed 6-foot-7 wings. Those are just manifestations of a principle. At the heart of it, smallball is composed of the core tenants of basketball. It’s still about the ability to make a play."

[Mediumcore]

It's sad that a difference in opinion elicits this sort of thread. It's offensive in so many ways.

I personally won't be posting on this site anymore if even our senior members are reaching these types of lows where they need to hurl insults. But I wish you guys all the best.

Hoping for a championship team real soon!!

[mcHAPPY]

It's sad that a difference in opinion elicits this sort of thread. It's offensive in so many ways.

I personally won't be posting on this site anymore if even our senior members are reaching these types of lows where they need to hurl insults. But I wish you guys all the best.

Hoping for a championship team real soon!!

Maybe before you go, you could offer some insight in to your own views?

Is it actually possible to come up with a substantiated argument that supports the statement that the "Days of the C are gone"?

As others have pointed out, small ball didn't win the championship. GS did. They also had a true C who was very much a part of winning until the last 3 games of the season when matchups dictated going in another direction.

Casey has taken this opportunity to justify his own mess ups. It is transparent and sickening, in my opinion. As I said in the OP:

What Casey has always failed to grasp is he doesn't have the guys to play small ball nor does he have the guys to play scramble defense..... but that hasn't stopped him from pounding the rock. Every year Casey talks about how he doesn't have the right guys....even when he gets what he wanted from the previous season (If only we had a guy to stop Paul Pierce!!! - lol).


And now we've come full circle on the issue: the job of a coach is to maximize the talent and abilities of the players he has. Casey has failed at this time and time again.... unless you think promoting inefficient volume scoring is a viable and sustainable approach to winning basketball games.


I'm glad GS won. I'm glad D'Antoni and Don Nelson are getting a lot of credit for their trailblazing ways. However, the recency bias is currently overwhelming.

There is nothing wrong with small ball. If you have the roster, you could employ it year round. If you have a line up that can employ it, you can use it as one of many tools in the tool box. But small ball is not unbeatable but Raptors wouldn't know because Casey prefers to match it versus beat it.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Did you read the front page article because it explains it very clearly and much better I can. The example you used here clearly shows that you either did not read that article, or did not understand it.

At the end of the game, it comes down to which team ( small ball vs big C) can force the other team to play their style of the game. This comes down to creating mismatches in BOTH offensive and defensive ends.

Article clerkly explained in detail why a Centre that is not mobile, is not quick, is not a good passer and is not able to handle quick double teams will have problems against the smaller team and why a mobile, quick, athletic C will be able to still force the other team out of their game plan.

I'm refuting 3 key points:

1. small ball alone enabled GS to win the championship

2. any/every team could effectively utilize small ball

3. playing the way that makes other teams successful is the best way to beat those other teams

[Axel]

Right from the front page article:

"In truth, “smallball” has become a nebulous term without much meaning. It’s used to encompass a multitude of sins, but at its essence, smallball is a philosophy based around leveraging scoring threats. Use shooting to create space, use movement to contort defenses and use passing to find a better shot. It’s not necessarily about the death of centers, rise of stretch-fours, importance 3-point shooting or playing “positionless basketball” with lineup of long-armed 6-foot-7 wings. Those are just manifestations of a principle. At the heart of it, smallball is composed of the core tenants of basketball. It’s still about the ability to make a play."

The bold is why we can't really employ small-ball. We don't have great shooters or anyone that really pressures the defence. We have zero movement off-ball, allowing help defenders to completely focus on the ball. We don't pass the ball around the create shots.

Our small ball failure isn't about JV, anymore than it's about KL, DD, Lou, JJ, Casey, etc

[CalgaryRapsFan]

The bold is why we can't really employ small-ball. We don't have great shooters or anyone that really pressures the defence. We have zero movement off-ball, allowing help defenders to completely focus on the ball. We don't pass the ball around the create shots.

Our small ball failure isn't about JV, anymore than it's about KL, DD, Lou, JJ, Casey, etc

All the small ball players need to be able to defend multiple positions as well.

Vasquez, Williams, DeRozan and Lowry wouldn't know defense if it bit them on the ass. Ross can defend when he wants to, but that's about 5% of the time apparently. Amir used to be able to, back when he had ankles. Patterson runs around a lot, but can't really defend or rebound very well. JJ and Fields were the only players on the roster that could defend at all, but their offensive games are non-existent.

So.... yay small ball?? Keep pounding that rock coach!