Is Casey right? Is the day of the C over??

[S.R.]

Better with Kyrie. I'd argue worse with Love.

Worse defensively, but if he forced GSW to play their C's, those guys wouldn't have enough offensive game to punish Love. Even against the small ball lineup, you might be able to hide Love on Igoudala and still come out with a net positive.

Just think of the fact that Mozgov scored a career 28 high against GS lineups. Love is a great offensive big - he could have put up 40 points and forced Kerr to react.

[ddaylewis]

Since you two are using the main page article as the basis of your argument, let's take a closer look. Honestly, the main page article is ho-hum. It has some good points but then has quite a few shady dealings such as:

"Look no further than the NBA Finals. The Golden State Warriors are an anomaly, sure, but they turned the tides against LeBron James by trotting out a lineup with just one 6-foot-8 “big” in Draymond Green and a handful of interchangeable wings. Steve Kerr extrapolated smallball to its logical extremes — he benched an All-NBA defender in Andrew Bogut — and won the championship."

"A handful of interchangeable wings" is completely under-valuing the talents of guys like Barnes, Iggy, Livingstone, Klay.

While Kerr did bench an All-NBA defender, but he did it specifically to match LeBron James with a 2014 All-NBA first team defender in Iggy who specifically matches up better than Bogut. If we had an all-NBA defender to bring off the bench, we'd probably have a lot more options too. Plus, benching an elite post defender for an elite perimeter defender when playing LeBron is just logic for the Finals, but that All-NBA post defender still played and started in every previous round and the entire regular season. So this point misrepresents what GSW did all season long, by using a single 6 game sample against a specific opponent to try and capture a trend.

"Valanciunas wouldn’t have the instincts to serve as a help defender against LeBron in the post and lacks the quickness to guard Golden State’s smalls."

How many players are able to really defend James? JV's lack of experience in these situations...and

" he’s a poor passer and isn’t inventive enough to score outside of his sweeping right hook or left-shoulder spin push shot"

is directly attributable to his lack of playing time. If he's on the bench, how is he supposed to develop his rotations, or passing? Any young player needs opportunity to learn these things, and JV simply hasn't gotten them.

And those "non-inventive" post moves are fairly effective as has been largely discussed. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that JV can't score in the post against "small-ball" line-ups.

It's the tactical issues of things like
"Valanciunas often gets looked off, even when he has the advantage." or "It also doesn’t help that his teammates aren’t particularly creative post-entry passers." are as much a hindrance as anything. How can he take advantage of his position and size if the entry pass is poor or predictable? A smaller defender is more likely to try and deflect an entry pass, using their quickness to try and prevent the size advantage from coming into play. If the entry pass is poor or predictable, it makes it easier for the defender to get a hand on it.

This "That also means he can’t stretch the defense" isn't necessarily even true, cause we've seen limited flashes of an effective jumper (39.4% from 16ft to 3P [same as DD during his All-Star campaign] and an excellent FT shooter too) that could be developed to be lethal at 18 feet. Stretching an opposing center to the top of the arc or along the baseline opens up the rim for a teammate (the whole point of stretching the defence). The article is using an awful lot of absolutes when discussing a young developing player.

Once again, the "Use shooting to create space, use movement to contort defenses and use passing to find a better shot." is where the Raps fail, regardless of small-ball or any other tactic.

"This is not a new line of thinking for Casey, who routinely benched Valanciunas against teams with an abundance of floor-spacing." - problem is Casey, also benched JV against teams like Milwaukee who were atrocious from beyond the arc. Casey wasn't matching anything, as much a pro-actively putting the Raps smaller on the front court.

"Imagine Jonas dropping back on a Draymond-Curry screen and roll. The guard forces Curry away from the screen and towards the sideline while Valanciunas cuts off the lane to the basket, but it leaves the swing to Green wide open. Then, with Valanciunas rushing out of the paint to contest, Green has options to shoot the trey, drive past, or swing if a third defender helps on the play. It’s an untenable situation." - if you were coaching against GSW, how would you try to defend them? In my coaching eyes, I would much rather Draymond Green shooting 20 times a game than Curry or Klay. I love Green, he's a fantastic talent (Mich St represent!) but if he shoots 33.7% from deep and 34% from mid-range, I would take that over Klay (43.9% deep/41.4% mid) or Curry (44.3% deep/39.4 % mid). So defending Curry/Klay and forcing Green to beat you is a perfectly sound strategic decision. Let's be honest, GSW is going to beat us most likely anyway, but you stand more of a chance if you make Green beat you than letting Curry/Klay go off.

"Valanciunas is a good scorer in the pick-and-roll, but he struggles to generate space for the passer with his screens and often gets himself out of position for passes." - JV sets good screens, but the limited effectiveness is often caused by the guards not waiting for him to set or switching directions and then not taking advantage of the roll. The defence can easily defend the PnR because the ball handler continually dribbles without any consideration for passing to the roll man.

"That’s why this isn’t a hit piece on Valanciunas. Rather, it’s an indictment for players who can’t make plays and and indictment against players who aren’t defensively versatile." - We don't really have many play-makers or any versatile defenders. That isn't a JV problem, that's a problem team wide.

Author of the article here. I think you're taking some things out of context.

1. Interchangeable wings refers to the similarity in size between Klay, Barnes, Iggy and Livingston. It makes it easier to switch. By no means am I shitting on their wings.
2. My point with the benching Bogut is that they were able to win the Finals without a center playing a major role, which is a first. The point is to highlight the emergence of smallball on the league's biggest stage. It was a tactical adjustment; Bogut played a huge role against Memphis (matched up against Tony Allen) and Houston.
3. The help instincts against James is not a slight against Valanciunas. It's just a fact. Plenty of centers have been tasked with the role of sending secondary help towards James. Noah, Duncan, Chandler and Hibbert are some examples. Jonas isn't yet at that level, but I do credit him for improving rim protection. The instincts, however, are not yet sharp enough with Valanciunas. Of course, he is young and he could improve (but that's much of the ethos of the article).
4. He's a historically poor passer. Part of it falls on the system, but there's just a general lack of vision with Jonas. He played over 2000 minutes, posted a usage of 19 percent and had an assist percentage of 3.1. Only five players in the history of the NBA have posted lower assist figures. It can't all be on the system.
5. Jonas cannot stretch the defense. Where are you even going with this? No one guards him out at the perimeter. All of his jumpers are wide open.
6. I agree with the Green point. That's why every team concedes 4-on-3s against Golden State. But the same applies on a Monta/Dirk pick-and-roll, or Lillard/LaMarcus, or whatever. My point is that Jonas isn't quick enough to guard those plays. It's a general point illustrated with one example.
7. I wouldn't say Jonas sets good screens. Someone like Bogut or Noah sets good screens because it always gets the ball-handler open. But regardless, he is underused as a pick-and-roll target. Some of that falls on him, though. Jonas has one instinct, which is to roll all the way down the lane. Comparatively, Amir Johnson is much better at short-rolling, presenting himself, then attacking the basket. These are subtle nuances that Jonas will improve upon.

My point with the piece was not to shit on Jonas. It's simply this: against smallball lineups, Jonas's offensive advantage is not greater than his defensive shortcomings. He's a bad matchup right now.

That's why he has to improve. But he's young and there's no reason why he wouldn't improve. He's already done wonders in improving his post game and rim protection.

What I'm not saying is that centers are irrelevant. That's a silly assertion, and I doubt that's what Casey meant to say.

[McRealistic]

My point with the piece was not to shit on Jonas. It's simply this: against smallball lineups, Jonas's offensive advantage is not greater than his defensive shortcomings. He's a bad matchup right now.

That's why he has to improve. But he's young and there's no reason why he wouldn't improve. He's already done wonders in improving his post game and rim protection.

What I'm not saying is that centers are irrelevant. That's a silly assertion, and I doubt that's what Casey meant to say.

Beautifully said ...

[octothorp]

So, if Jonas does well converting on post-ups, but does poorly passing out of double-teams, and has trouble catching the ball in traffic, how do you make use of him to create plays? I think a creative coach could take advantage of the skills he has better, even if JV isn't an instinctively creative player. I think you use a team's willingness to double JV as a weapon against them, finding a way to move the ball in to JV and then quickly back out again. Right now, teams are typically doubling JV when he starts to move into the paint, bringing a help defender at him from the weakside, rather than when he catches the ball. It's too easy when the Raptors simply pass in, clear out the side, and give him no option except to beat his man or (if he's lucky) make a predictable pass out.

I'd like to see JV receiving a pass in the post and then giving a hand-off, typically to a player running off an off-ball screen under the basket. JV is good enough in the post that he demands his guy getting right up on him as soon as he gets the ball, which essentially creates a double-wide screen for the player taking the hand-off. If the other team is already shading another defend towards JV to help, then at the point of the hand-off, you've likely bunched three defenders right under the basket, while a ball handler is coming up to the top of the key, resulting in fantastic spacing to get a short jumper or kick it out to one of three shooters for what should be a wide open 3. Sometimes, you'll catch the other team swarming the ball-handler and leaving JV back wide open under the hoop. With the current lineup, you could run it probably with either DeRozan or Ross being the ball-handler.

[JimiCliff]

Author of the article here. I think you're taking some things out of context.
2. My point with the benching Bogut is that they were able to win the Finals without a center playing a major role, which is a first. The point is to highlight the emergence of smallball on the league's biggest stage. It was a tactical adjustment; Bogut played a huge role against Memphis (matched up against Tony Allen) and Houston.

It was also, hands down/by far/irrefutably, the worst collection of players (minus Lebron) that a modern finals has ever seen, so anything that we think we might have 'learned' from this series needs a big, fat asterisk next to it.

[ddaylewis]

It was also, hands down/by far/irrefutably, the worst collection of players (minus Lebron) that a modern finals has ever seen, so anything that we think we might have 'learned' from this series needs a big, fat asterisk next to it.

Again, some context is needed. The point of the Bogut/GSW trope is to highlight the growing popularity of smallball. I cite other examples too.

[JimiCliff]

4. He's a historically poor passer. Part of it falls on the system, but there's just a general lack of vision with Jonas. He played over 2000 minutes, posted a usage of 19 percent and had an assist percentage of 3.1. Only five players in the history of the NBA have posted lower assist figures. It can't all be on the system.

Bullspit. He's, at worst, average for a 'big' centre. Can't be all on the system? We now have reams of evidence that players' assist rates decline the moment they start playing for Casey. I'll bet that under almost any other coach, JV's assist rate would instantly rise to a level average with other players that he comps with.

[ddaylewis]

Bullspit. He's, at worst, average for a 'big' centre. Can't be all on the system? We now have reams of evidence that players' assist rates decline the moment they start playing for Casey. I'll bet that under almost any other coach, JV's assist rate would instantly rise to a level average with other players that he comps with.

I think a lot of it speaks to the system, but hints of JV's vision are few and far between. Again, he posted historically low assist figures.

[JimiCliff]

I think a lot of it speaks to the system, but hints of JV's vision are few and far between. Again, he posted historically low assist figures.

Sure. And I don't buy it without seeing some math that accounts for A) exactly HOW much lower he is than, say, the average player, in terms of something like a standard deviation and B) then accounting for what Casey's system does for his players' assist rate.

As you yourself say: context matters

[slaw]

My point with the benching Bogut is that they were able to win the Finals without a center playing a major role, which is a first. The point is to highlight the emergence of smallball on the league's biggest stage. It was a tactical adjustment; Bogut played a huge role against Memphis (matched up against Tony Allen) and Houston.

Really? Did history begin in 2014? Cause I would suggest that both the Miami Heat and the Big Three Celtics won without a centre playing a major role. You could also argue the 09-10 Lakers, though, mileage may vary on that. Then, obviously, Jordan won 6 titles in Chicago without a centre playing a "major role".

GSW is a great team and accomplished something great coming out of the West and winning. But they are a strange beast comprised of a lot of unique parts that will be hard to duplicate and drawing sweeping conclusions about the state of the league from their championship is foolish.

[Bandit]

My point with the piece was not to shit on Jonas. It's simply this: against smallball lineups, Jonas's offensive advantage is not greater than his defensive shortcomings. He's a bad matchup right now.

That's why he has to improve. But he's young and there's no reason why he wouldn't improve. He's already done wonders in improving his post game and rim protection.

What I'm not saying is that centers are irrelevant. That's a silly assertion, and I doubt that's what Casey meant to say.

I wonder though, how can you measure his offensive advantage against small ball when his offensive ability isn't being leveraged and the defensive scheme is designed to allow the ball handler into the lane?

I would argue that we don't have a proper benchmark off of which we can gauge this statement.

Jonas is routinely looked off when he has a strong post position with either a mismatch or poor defender. He is routinely looked off in lieu of contested jumpers when the opponent goes small.

The evidence kind of shows that Casey doesn't see the value in giving JV that opportunity/development.

It is my belief that if Mozgov can give the warriors troubles while they go small, JV (as the better offensive player) should be able to cause even more of an issue. He just needs the ball in his hands.

[ddaylewis]

Really? Did history begin in 2014? Cause I would suggest that both the Miami Heat and the Big Three Celtics won without a centre playing a major role. You could also argue the 09-10 Lakers, though, mileage may vary on that. Then, obviously, Jordan won 6 titles in Chicago without a centre playing a "major role".

GSW is a great team and accomplished something great coming out of the West and winning. But they are a strange beast comprised of a lot of unique parts that will be hard to duplicate and drawing sweeping conclusions about the state of the league from their championship is foolish.

No one is saying otherwise.

[slaw]

No one is saying otherwise.

Wasn't that the genesis of this? Casey's quote? Sorry, my post was ambiguous. It kinda sounded like that was what he was doing, though, I may be taking him out of context.

[octothorp]

Wasn't that the genesis of this? Casey's quote? Sorry, my post was ambiguous. It kinda sounded like that was what he was doing, though, I may be taking him out of context.

I think casey's quote was more about cleveland's decision to reduce Mozgov's minutes and match the Warriors' small ball, saying he would do the same; rather than being about whether he thought he could run a g.s. offence in Toronto. It's a brutal quote any way you look at it, but that's my understanding of the context.

[Axel]

Author of the article here. I think you're taking some things out of context.

1. Interchangeable wings refers to the similarity in size between Klay, Barnes, Iggy and Livingston. It makes it easier to switch. By no means am I shitting on their wings.
2. My point with the benching Bogut is that they were able to win the Finals without a center playing a major role, which is a first. The point is to highlight the emergence of smallball on the league's biggest stage. It was a tactical adjustment; Bogut played a huge role against Memphis (matched up against Tony Allen) and Houston.
3. The help instincts against James is not a slight against Valanciunas. It's just a fact. Plenty of centers have been tasked with the role of sending secondary help towards James. Noah, Duncan, Chandler and Hibbert are some examples. Jonas isn't yet at that level, but I do credit him for improving rim protection. The instincts, however, are not yet sharp enough with Valanciunas. Of course, he is young and he could improve (but that's much of the ethos of the article).
4. He's a historically poor passer. Part of it falls on the system, but there's just a general lack of vision with Jonas. He played over 2000 minutes, posted a usage of 19 percent and had an assist percentage of 3.1. Only five players in the history of the NBA have posted lower assist figures. It can't all be on the system.
5. Jonas cannot stretch the defense. Where are you even going with this? No one guards him out at the perimeter. All of his jumpers are wide open.
6. I agree with the Green point. That's why every team concedes 4-on-3s against Golden State. But the same applies on a Monta/Dirk pick-and-roll, or Lillard/LaMarcus, or whatever. My point is that Jonas isn't quick enough to guard those plays. It's a general point illustrated with one example.
7. I wouldn't say Jonas sets good screens. Someone like Bogut or Noah sets good screens because it always gets the ball-handler open. But regardless, he is underused as a pick-and-roll target. Some of that falls on him, though. Jonas has one instinct, which is to roll all the way down the lane. Comparatively, Amir Johnson is much better at short-rolling, presenting himself, then attacking the basket. These are subtle nuances that Jonas will improve upon.

My point with the piece was not to shit on Jonas. It's simply this: against smallball lineups, Jonas's offensive advantage is not greater than his defensive shortcomings. He's a bad matchup right now.

That's why he has to improve. But he's young and there's no reason why he wouldn't improve. He's already done wonders in improving his post game and rim protection.

What I'm not saying is that centers are irrelevant. That's a silly assertion, and I doubt that's what Casey meant to say.

Overall, your piece is being used by posters to rally as evidence against JV. That isn't your fault, but unfortunately, those of us who are pointing out their bullshit have to drag your piece into it. Overall, I said you have some good points, but either by design or the interpretation of certain posters, the words are not presenting a full story.

1. I don't think you were shitting on them, but you weren't given them their full due either. This isn't a team of regular wingers that can be swapped in and out, and the language used made it seem like they were interchangeable as in, could swap out with other team's wingers; when this is probably the best collection of wingers we've seen on a single roster. Bringing an All-NBA defender (from just last season) off the bench to roll with a collection that includes a recent lotto pick (Barnes), an All-NBA defender and DPOY runner up (Green), and a savy vet (Livingstone) is simply unheard of.

2. Bogut is not the first center to not play a prominent role on a Championship team, as there have been other champs with lesser centers on their roster and Bogut was a huge part of getting that team to the Finals. Using that 6 game sample to demonstrate a larger trend is false, when Bogut started all season and all previous rounds of the playoffs for Golden State.
Then you look at history: Spurs won by benching Splitter for Diaw. Miami won using Bosh at C and LeBron at PF. Lakers won with Bynum hardly playing and using Pau Gasol at C with Lamar Odom at PF. Celtics won using Garnett at C and James Posey/Paul Pierce at the 3/4.

Since David Robinson retired, Shaq is the only center (with Miami) to really be a driving force of a Championship team. So this is nothing new as it's been happening for over a decade already.

4. JV's passing isn't "historically bad". Historically bad pretty much has to stand out as significantly bad when compared to similar players and seasons. JVs AST% (which doesn't actually tracking passing) is the same as Alex Len, DeAndre Jordan from last season and is the exact same % as LaMarcus Aldridge had when LA was 21 yrs old (JV being 22). Far from historically bad.

5. JV has the same FG% from 16ft - 3P that Demar had during his All-Star season, was better than PP last year from that range (can he not stretch the D either?) and better than KL.

He can obviously hit the shot, but doesn't take it that often. He hits it better than Draymond Green does, so in a pick and pop situation, in the mid-range, JV can hit that shot better than the guy you chose as a match-up problem for JV. Since our guards don't pass to JV much, and the short hook he seems to have, he doesn't take that shot as much as he should. But defences will have to guard him out there if we passed him the ball and he took the shot.

6. We can't defend the pick and roll as a team, and it's usually because we can't force the ball handler away from driving to the rim. Our perimeter defence is non-existent, so to isolate JV as an issue is again misleading as it is a team issue.

To the final bolded point, JV barely played against opponents small-ball, and when he did, we never pressed the offensive advantage. Under the current Raps philosophy, you are right, having JV defend a quicker, smaller player on defence isn't a great idea, but that is because our offence doesn't adjust to the size mismatch that JV has; we simply continue to see the same perimeter crap. An intelligent coach would try to make the opponent pay for giving up so much size inside by running post ups, passing to the roller, or using lobs. Unfortunately, we don't have an intelligent coach, so while Casey continues to let KL, DD, GV and Lou chuck on offence, JV isn't a good match-up, but that is more to do with the stupidity of the coach than the failings of JV.

I'm sorry to have to go through your post with such detail and highlight the misleading aspects of it, but the sad part of the forum is that some posters try to use front page articles as gospel facts to push their "Anti-JV" agenda. Your article got caught up in it. It's not even that it's a poorly written piece (almost any piece can be given the same treatment), but the absolutism that some posters are trying to pull from your piece (whether intended or not) are complete garbage. And in the words of Jack,