Masai : "I've made a huge mistake" (sort of)

[JWash]

Tbh I think the mistake was re-signing Vasquez after acquiring Lou via trade.

Should have gone after a 3+D SG off the bench that would mesh better with Lou's primary ball handler tendencies.

Combine that roster composition with Casey's foolishness, and you get 3 PGs out there regularly (Lou, Lowry, GV). I know Lou isn't really a PG, but he's PG-sized and needs the ball.

[GarbageTime]

Lou williams is a welcome addition to any nba bench. One of the better 6th man in all the league, he will add wins to your team.

Greivis vasquez is a welcome addition to any nba bench. One of the better 6th man in all the league, he will add wins to your team.

Trotting greasy and sweet lou out TOGETHER, nightly, for 20 mins or more, side by fucking side, is classic wtfcasey and spells disaster on both sides of the ball.

Well according to NBAwowy, w/Lou + Vasquez on the floor the Raps had a PPP of 1.149 and a dPPP of 1.097 for a net rating of +0.052. So it seems to have 'worked'

(for the season the Raptors had a PPP of 1.110 and a dPPP of 1.086 for a net + 0.014)

That would mean, according to the given data, Lou and Vasquez together weren't only a net positive, it was better than the team in general.

All that said, I'm not sure how Lou or JJ (or Vasquez) could possibly be a big enough 'mistakes' in the first place. (JJ and Lou had the 2nd and 3rd best net rating vs the team... while Vasquez's was negative but only 0.1 less than Demar). These are rather cheap players who were coming off the bench.

[Nilanka]

Mehhhh...they both suck,I'm not fan of either. If we can get something for Vasquez..ie decent roster player and clearing cap from lou,I'm all for it

Doctor Lecter, how will you be spending your summer now that NBC cancelled your show?

[Nilanka]

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone (including Masai) could've predicted the bounce-back year that Lou had. Obtaining him was a low risk, high reward move. Masai can't be faulted for it.

[golden]

Lou williams is a welcome addition to any nba bench. One of the better 6th man in all the league, he will add wins to your team.

Greivis vasquez is a welcome addition to any nba bench. One of the better 6th man in all the league, he will add wins to your team.

Trotting greasy and sweet lou out TOGETHER, nightly, for 20 mins or more, side by fucking side, is classic wtfcasey and spells disaster on both sides of the ball.

LOL. You can pretty much end any thread with #wtfcasey and I'd agree, but you're if not starting Lou or GV then one of them is playing only 5-10 minutes a game. Does that one fall on Masai?

I like Lou a lot as a player and his amazing ability to create shots for himself, but Casey just distorted and overused those ISO skills to a ridiculous level where you could actually call out the exact play and move Lou was going to use in certain situations, in advance. If Lou was anywhere near his normal career AST% (I think it was close to half), then like you said, he's a welcome addition to any bench. With Casey nurturing his selfish side in a contract year, it really didn't matter who was playing with him. I think both 2Pat and Ross were worse off from how Casey used Lou too and the resulting lack of ball movement. I got no problems with Lou, the player.

[S.R.]

Well according to NBAwowy, w/Lou + Vasquez on the floor the Raps had a PPP of 1.149 and a dPPP of 1.097 for a net rating of +0.052. So it seems to have 'worked'

(for the season the Raptors had a PPP of 1.110 and a dPPP of 1.086 for a net + 0.014)

That would mean, according to the given data, Lou and Vasquez together weren't only a net positive, it was better than the team in general.

All that said, I'm not sure how Lou or JJ (or Vasquez) could possibly be a big enough 'mistakes' in the first place. (JJ and Lou had the 2nd and 3rd best net rating vs the team... while Vasquez's was negative but only 0.1 less than Demar). These are rather cheap players who were coming off the bench.

So many problems with comparing +/- stats of bench players vs. starters, the first of which is you're comparing bench players vs. starters. All that number says is what everybody knows about last year's team - the Raptors bench was better than average and their starters were very average. Give your GV+LW combo KL+DD's minutes against starting backcourts and their net rating would plunge.

[GarbageTime]

So many problems with comparing +/- stats of bench players vs. starters, the first of which is you're comparing bench players vs. starters. All that number says is what everybody knows about last year's team - the Raptors bench was better than average and their starters were very average. Give your GV+LW combo KL+DD's minutes against starting backcourts and their net rating would plunge.

I'm not denying that net ratings could use a 'starter vs bench' adjustment.

But the discussion was regarding these 2 together being a 'mistake'... but according to the data, they were not within their role or in that role together.

GV and Lou weren't Lowry and Demar, or given Lowry and Demar's role, or given Lowry and Demar's pay or Lowry and Demar's minutes. Nor was I even attempting to compare them (Demar was just a point of reference, just like the team as a whole was another)

[slaw]

Doctor Lecter, how will you be spending your summer now that NBC cancelled your show?

That's too bad. It was the only show worth watching on NBC and the first couple episodes this year have been awesome. The parts with Hannibal and his "wife" (Gillian Anderson) are as good as it gets on tv.

[Superjudge]

I'm not denying that net ratings could use a 'starter vs bench' adjustment.

But the discussion was regarding these 2 together being a 'mistake'... but according to the data, they were not within their role or in that role together.

GV and Lou weren't Lowry and Demar, or given Lowry and Demar's role, or given Lowry and Demar's pay or Lowry and Demar's minutes. Nor was I even attempting to compare them (Demar was just a point of reference, just like the team as a whole was another)

Ok but here's the thing that stats dont show.
put a guy on the floor, let him jack it up, and basically move away from running the offence they way its suppose to be run. Yes, he gets hot often and hits shots, but whats the effect that has on the team as a whole past the minute effect of momentary statistical gain?

You have a center who is trying to improve, but doesnt see the ball. You have guys like PPAT that need touches to get going if they are to be options down the stretch when it counts. You have T-Ross, another spot up shooter that absolutely needs clean looks in the flow of offence to get hot...... if this isn't happening, you can feel the game getting away, because the way a guy like Sweet Lou i splaying is killing the flow of the game for everyone else.

Is he a bad guy? Fuck no. But is his style of play what you need moving forward if youre tryin gto build a balanced and effective offence? Nooope

[Mindlessness]

Ok but here's the thing that stats dont show.
put a guy on the floor, let him jack it up, and basically move away from running the offence they way its suppose to be run. Yes, he gets hot often and hits shots, but whats the effect that has on the team as a whole past the minute effect of momentary statistical gain?

You have a center who is trying to improve, but doesnt see the ball. You have guys like PPAT that need touches to get going if they are to be options down the stretch when it counts. You have T-Ross, another spot up shooter that absolutely needs clean looks in the flow of offence to get hot...... if this isn't happening, you can feel the game getting away, because the way a guy like Sweet Lou i splaying is killing the flow of the game for everyone else.

Is he a bad guy? Fuck no. But is his style of play what you need moving forward if youre tryin gto build a balanced and effective offence? Nooope

I... agree with SuperCraig. Shit, better wash my mouth with soap.

[golden]

I... agree with SuperCraig. Shit, better wash my mouth with soap.

Yup. Dude is bang on.

[Jangles]

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone (including Masai) could've predicted the bounce-back year that Lou had. Obtaining him was a low risk, high reward move. Masai can't be faulted for it.

He can be faulted for not moving him at the deadline, in the middle of a sub .500 second half of the season.

[OldSkoolCool]

I... agree with SuperCraig. Shit, better wash my mouth with soap.

I slow clapped that post. Then had to do a double take on who posted it.

Superjudge just got real

[Nilanka]

That's too bad. It was the only show worth watching on NBC and the first couple episodes this year have been awesome. The parts with Hannibal and his "wife" (Gillian Anderson) are as good as it gets on tv.

Agreed.

Maybe it's a tad too artistic/edgy for mainstream TV? Wonder if there's a chance that Netflix, ShowTime, AMC or HBO pick it up going forward.

[GarbageTime]

Ok but here's the thing that stats dont show.
put a guy on the floor, let him jack it up, and basically move away from running the offence they way its suppose to be run. Yes, he gets hot often and hits shots, but whats the effect that has on the team as a whole past the minute effect of momentary statistical gain?

You have a center who is trying to improve, but doesnt see the ball. You have guys like PPAT that need touches to get going if they are to be options down the stretch when it counts. You have T-Ross, another spot up shooter that absolutely needs clean looks in the flow of offence to get hot...... if this isn't happening, you can feel the game getting away, because the way a guy like Sweet Lou i splaying is killing the flow of the game for everyone else.

Is he a bad guy? Fuck no. But is his style of play what you need moving forward if youre tryin gto build a balanced and effective offence? Nooope

This seems to be a different question than the one I was discussing. (and I don't get into measuring "flow" or the such because its purely subjective. If Lou's killed the 'flow', that 'flow' died after he was off the floor... also, there are other (less efficient) players those 'touches' could have come from)

And for what its worth, I personally have no interest in keeping Lou on the team going forward per se. If the team wants to "win now" then he makes sense as a 6th man (unless Masai/Casey actually have the balls to move Demar to the bench, at which case Lou is redundant).

But Lou was a significant part of this teams "success" this past season... as was the bench in general (PP, JJ, Lou and GV). The Raptors had one of the best benches in the NBA, these guys were all part of it. If there was a 'mistake' in that regard its that bench out performed starters on a relative basis, and as starters become ever more important in the playoffs... it left a talent level that was disproportionate for a playoff roster. ie. Masai's mistake was too much 'lost' talent on the bench, not enough in the starting line up.

As well, playing Lou and GV together was a success, at least statistically. As a whole they were a net positive and better than the team in general. (again relative to their role(s))