Are we treadmilling?

[Nilanka]

#fakeconferencefinals. #fakeplayoffwins.

Didn't take long for this to start. Corpse isn't even cold.

Nothing fake about the accomplishments. But nothing convincing either.

[slaw]

Not what he said.

Do you think this team's core is at its ceiling?

Yes. They aren't beating the Lebrons. Again, only three teams in the NBA have a chance to beat the Lebrons. The only reason they have a chance is that each team has an otherworldly talent in Curry, Wb/Durant and Leonard. If you want to beat the Lebrons you need one of those four guys. So, unless the Raps are getting one of those 4 guys this is the ceiling of every other team in the NBA.

Making the conference finals means something. It isn't fake or irrelevant or immaterial and you don't dismantle a team cause you get beat by Lebron and it doesn't mean you are treadmilling or need to tank or even rebuild. That's nonsensical.

[JimiCliff]

#fakeconferencefinals. #fakeplayoffwins.

Didn't take long for this to start. Corpse isn't even cold.

Ok - so Cleveland and Toronto each make it to the conference final. Do we say that they are, therefore, equal teams because they ended up in the same place? Do we disregard HOW they got there? And if no, then exactly which non-results based conclusions are we allowed to make without getting that blanket #fakeconferencefinals #fakeplayoffwins retort?

[Axel]

Yes. They aren't beating the Lebrons. Again, only three teams in the NBA have a chance to beat the Lebrons. The only reason they have a chance is that each team has an otherworldly talent in Curry, Wb/Durant and Leonard. If you want to beat the Lebrons you need one of those four guys. So, unless the Raps are getting one of those 4 guys this is the ceiling of every other team in the NBA.

Making the conference finals means something. It isn't fake or irrelevant or immaterial and you don't dismantle a team cause you get beat by Lebron and it doesn't mean you are treadmilling or need to tank or even rebuild. That's nonsensical.

So you agree that they are at their ceiling but don't think they would be tread milling to keep the same core? So without the team progressing (past its ceiling), how is it not tread milling? Lack of forward progression despite moving is the whole premise of tread milling.

[Mess]

I wondered how long it would be until this topic was brought up again. The term "treadmill" makes my eyes glaze over almost as much as repetitive DeMar posts.

All of your "fundamental questions" are already being discussed and considered in many other places without that "dreaded" catch-all label being applied. Besides being easy to prematurely apply to almost any transaction (and result) and being inherently negative, lumping everything together is just boring. Is OKC treadmilling? Is Sacramento treadmilling? You can argue yes to both so...sure, every team with 30 to 56 wins is treadmilling. And then what? Is it really just a veiled way to bring up getting rid of the core 3 to "rebuilding"?

[Nilanka]

tread-mill

noun

"A team not skilled enough to compete for a title, and not poor enough to earn a top 5 draft pick. The dreaded lack of elite talent infusion."

Nilanka's International Dictionary, 3rd Edition (2016)

[Mess]

So you agree that they are at their ceiling but don't think they would be tread milling to keep the same core? So without the team progressing (past its ceiling), how is it not tread milling? Lack of forward progression despite moving is the whole premise of tread milling.

Why presume that's going to happen? People presumed it on July 3rd when this thread was created. From July 3rd to today, did we have a lack of forward progression?

[Billy103]

So we made the conference finals but what's the next step? how do we become a contender? IMO I think if we keep this core this is the peak.

[Axel]

Why presume that's going to happen? People presumed it on July 3rd when this thread was created. From July 3rd to today, did we have a lack of forward progression?

What presumption? He said it's not a treadmill but admits they are at their ceiling. I'm trying to figure out how those two things can go together.

If you aren't progressing and just keep going with it, then you're tread milling. If you believe that this is the ceiling of Lowry and DD led Raptors, then to keep going with them is tread milling.

[Letter N]

So you agree that they are at their ceiling but don't think they would be tread milling to keep the same core? So without the team progressing (past its ceiling), how is it not tread milling? Lack of forward progression despite moving is the whole premise of tread milling.

There's no easy fix though.

Your options are to: A) tear it all down and hope your rebuild in 3-5 years will be better than what you have right now and the league will be easier.
B) Keep majority of what you have and continue tweaking while being a winning franchise and hoping enough small changes make it work.
C) Getting one of the 6 or 7 players in the league that can instantly make a difference.

C is the lottery ticket everyone hopes for and few get. A is a tough sell and not necessarily a good idea to just have a fire sale after your first conference finals. Doesn't send a great message to your players or any players looking to join you in the future. I was all for tanking, but the time for that has passed, it's no longer a viable option in the short term.

B is really your only option and those tweaks can be switching Derozan to someone more efficient and better 3-point shooter, finding a stretch 4, developing your young players, etc. More in the realm of a Phoenix Suns Nash era tweaks, but hopefully our owners will be less cheap.

Only 1 team wins it all and you can't burn down the house just because you're not the 1. Especially when you're competing against superstars like Lebron.

[Axel]

There's no easy fix though.

Your options are to: A) tear it all down and hope your rebuild in 3-5 years will be better than what you have right now and the league will be easier.
B) Keep majority of what you have and continue tweaking while being a winning franchise and hoping enough small changes make it work.
C) Getting one of the 6 or 7 players in the league that can instantly make a difference.

C is the lottery ticket everyone hopes for and few get. A is a tough sell and not necessarily a good idea to just have a fire sale after your first conference finals. Doesn't send a great message to your players or any players looking to join you in the future. I was all for tanking, but the time for that has passed, it's no longer a viable option in the short term.

B is really your only option and those tweaks can be switching Derozan to someone more efficient and better 3-point shooter, finding a stretch 4, developing your young players, etc. More in the realm of a Phoenix Suns Nash era tweaks, but hopefully our owners will be less cheap.

Only 1 team wins it all and you can't burn down the house just because you're not the 1. Especially when you're competing against superstars like Lebron.

No easy fix doesn't mean you don't try.

Selling a 30 year old Lowry for a good haul is not a fire sale. It's asset management to try and align the prime of all of your best players. Lowry can carry this team today, but this is as far as he can take us and he isn't going to get better.

[Mess]

tread-mill

noun

"A team not skilled enough to compete for a title, and not poor enough to earn a top 5 draft pick. The dreaded lack of elite talent infusion."

Nilanka's International Dictionary, 3rd Edition (2016)

Example: 2/3's of the league

[RepTdot]

reallly? tread milling? we are playing with house money at the moment...the ECF is exactly where the Raps ceiling was supposed to be this season....Cleveland is a better team! Lebron is under huge amounts to pressure to bring a championship home...there is no shame in losing to a clearly better team when we have met and/or exceeded expectation already.

[S.R.]

Saying "make a transaction now or we're treadmilling" is completely arbitrary. You can't control what opportunities are out there. Maybe there's something this summer, this next season, the next year after...who knows? Maybe DD re-signs now, Lowry re-signs next year, then there's a home run trade to be made in 2018 and we have a finals contender then. You can't predict that now.

I really don't think Masai is looking at this team now and considering his core untouchable and this roster to be contenders as is or with a bit more development from Delon Wright and Norman Powell. You bet he's open to and interesting in making moves. A lot of that opportunity/luck is outside of his control though. Maybe something happens this summer or next year, but maybe the right thing never comes up or they get outbid and this season turns out to be the peak for this team. Not all that stuff is under your control, and you can't really judge it until after it's over. Nobody expected 2001 to be Vince's peak with the Raptors, but it was. Nobody also expected the Boston Celtics to turn from a 24 win lottery team into 66 win NBA champions in a single summer, but they did.

If question here is "stick with the current group and treadmill for multiple seasons" vs. "make some moves and get better" I think that's pretty obviously a strawman proposition. Masai's not mulling over which of those two options he likes better right now.

I think from this point on he has to be looking at any moves involving any of his assets that make the team better. I'd be pretty shocked if we found out that he plans on sticking with the status quo for the next three years to see if this group can win a title with a bit of tweaking and internal development.

[Letter N]

No easy fix doesn't mean you don't try.

Selling a 30 year old Lowry for a good haul is not a fire sale. It's asset management to try and align the prime of all of your best players. Lowry can carry this team today, but this is as far as he can take us and he isn't going to get better.

And that's tweaking, that's what every team in the league is trying to do.

Also you're not the only one that sees the problems with Lowry. How much is a GM going to give up him knowing all the things you know plus the fact that he's a year away from FA?