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Are we treadmilling?

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  • I keep hearing crap year after year when we were a bad team.. if only we could get a a better team that makes the playoffs consistently.. now we are better and we still crap on these guys.. Can we not enjoy that we are at the ECF finals.. We progress 1 year in the playoff and we peaked... so irritiating... Can we not wait 2 years to evaluate.. You cannot tear down if all you are going to get is tier II & III star in return..


    We all all know that you need a tier 1 superstar to compete for championship, we DON"T HAVE ONE.. and none of the current tier 1 stars will be coming here soon -----We have to find a develop a Tier I star later in the draft like Steph Curry, Kawhi and PG13.. Enjoy what we have or wait years again until the tanking possibilities arrive..

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    • Barolt wrote: View Post
      Here's the thing: Yes, Cleveland is amazing. Yes, we're in the ECF.

      Guess what: We're playing .500 ball in the playoffs. By the end of this series, we'll be under .500 having played a bad Indiana team and a crippled Miami team.
      meh who cares. you can still win the championship with a .571 playoff record if need be.

      you're not gonna get a really good playoff record without superstars.

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      • Realistically, I think the ceiling for the Raptors over the next 3-5 years would be sweeping all opponents in the East that don't have Lebron on their team, and then losing to Lebron's team in the ECF in 7 games.

        So we haven't quite hit the ceiling yet although the end result of this season will be the same end result of that (those) ceiling season(s). Does that make sense?

        I don't think loosing the ECF 5 years in a row can be considered Treadmilling.
        your pal,
        ebrian

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        • slaw wrote: View Post
          Making the conference finals means something. It isn't fake or irrelevant or immaterial and you don't dismantle a team cause you get beat by Lebron and it doesn't mean you are treadmilling or need to tank or even rebuild. That's nonsensical.
          If we stand pat or do little, teams that didn't make it as far as we did this year will surpass us next year or the year after. Boston could be ridiculous, if Miami gets Bosh back they will be a lot better, Charlotte and Atlanta are in the mix. I would hate to go back to watching a 30 win team but it's not unreasonable to consider the future of our starting backcourt, who cannot seem to elevate their games when it matters most.

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          • Letter N wrote: View Post
            There's no easy fix though.

            Your options are to: A) tear it all down and hope your rebuild in 3-5 years will be better than what you have right now and the league will be easier.
            B) Keep majority of what you have and continue tweaking while being a winning franchise and hoping enough small changes make it work.
            C) Getting one of the 6 or 7 players in the league that can instantly make a difference.

            C is the lottery ticket everyone hopes for and few get. A is a tough sell and not necessarily a good idea to just have a fire sale after your first conference finals. Doesn't send a great message to your players or any players looking to join you in the future. I was all for tanking, but the time for that has passed, it's no longer a viable option in the short term.

            B is really your only option and those tweaks can be switching Derozan to someone more efficient and better 3-point shooter, finding a stretch 4, developing your young players, etc. More in the realm of a Phoenix Suns Nash era tweaks, but hopefully our owners will be less cheap.

            Only 1 team wins it all and you can't burn down the house just because you're not the 1. Especially when you're competing against superstars like Lebron.
            Have to agree, at this point tearing it down is just a fun and tempting thought exercise. What the franchise really needs is to build it's reputation as a potential free agency destination by sustaining success and putting together a roster and organization that looks tempting to a genuine franchise player. If really feel like the combination of a good, respected GM, a solid and experienced coach in Casey (or an upgrade if the opportunity presents itself), a deep and tested supporting cast and the lure of a national market is going to make someone like Westbrook think long and hard about the Raptors. If that opportunity never arises, you just keep stocking the cupboard hoping for a trade. You can't ask for a better shot at the upgrade you'd need unless you want to throw away all of the goodwill that you've built with with the league and the fans over the last 3 years.

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            • Jangles wrote: View Post
              If we stand pat or do little, teams that didn't make it as far as we did this year will surpass us next year or the year after. Boston could be ridiculous, if Miami gets Bosh back they will be a lot better, Charlotte and Atlanta are in the mix. I would hate to go back to watching a 30 win team but it's not unreasonable to consider the future of our starting backcourt, who cannot seem to elevate their games when it matters most.
              That's a different story, though. Toronto won't be standing still. MU will be attempting to improve the roster. You're assuming everyone else is going to improve except Toronto, that isn't a valid assumption.

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              • Axel wrote: View Post
                What presumption? He said it's not a treadmill but admits they are at their ceiling. I'm trying to figure out how those two things can go together.
                You need to try harder.....

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                • Letter N wrote: View Post
                  And that's tweaking, that's what every team in the league is trying to do.

                  Also you're not the only one that sees the problems with Lowry. How much is a GM going to give up him knowing all the things you know plus the fact that he's a year away from FA?
                  For other teams, Lowry's next few seasons align much better than ours.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                  • Yeah, this discussion is ridiculous. Treadmilling means that you've reached a point where salary-cap-wise, draft-wise, and current-roster wise, you've maxed out your assets, and your only ability to actually move forward is to take a significant step back.
                    1. Cap: we've got enough expirings this year that we could acquire a different near-max player to improve the core. As well, other than Biyombo, we've got bird rights on every other important contract on the roster. Getting to the conference finals (and regardless of whether they lose in 4 by 100 points here), is only a positive in terms of attracting free agents.
                    2. Draft: We've got a mid-lottery pick this year! We would have to tank to hard to get anywhere close to that within the near future. Plus four first-rounders (probably) between this year and next.
                    3. Roster: Decent potential for internal growth, both in terms of young players improving and reaching their prime, plus veterans learning how to play smarter and be better leaders.

                    I seem to be different than most, but I'm super-optimistic about where this team is. That doesn't mean I'm super-optimistic about this specific core or any particular players or the coaching staff. That doesn't mean I'm satisfied with getting to the conference finals and getting blown out there. And that doesn't mean that I think they won't take a step backwards next year.

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                    • Mess wrote: View Post
                      Example: 2/3's of the league
                      That doesn't make it any more of a desirable position to be in.

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                      • ebrian wrote: View Post
                        Realistically, I think the ceiling for the Raptors over the next 3-5 years would be sweeping all opponents in the East that don't have Lebron on their team, and then losing to Lebron's team in the ECF in 7 games.

                        So we haven't quite hit the ceiling yet although the end result of this season will be the same end result of that (those) ceiling season(s). Does that make sense?

                        I don't think loosing the ECF 5 years in a row can be considered Treadmilling.
                        Does sweeping mean doing what the Cavs did to their opponents in their rounds so far?

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                        • slaw wrote: View Post
                          That's a different story, though. Toronto won't be standing still. MU will be attempting to improve the roster. You're assuming everyone else is going to improve except Toronto, that isn't a valid assumption.
                          I think its a safe assumption to say that Boston and Miami (if Bosh is cleared to return) will likely be able to improve a little more than the Raptors who will be at the salary cap when they re-sign Demar. Who knows tho, #9 could be an instant impact player.

                          I know you've joked about fake playoff wins and ECF, but our first 2 round opponents were not very good and we likely should have beaten them a little more convincingly. I don't think the road to the ECF will be as easy next year.

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                          • Treadmilling means same results year after year.

                            We have been improving year after year the last 3-4.

                            We are not treadmilling.

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                            • octothorp wrote: View Post
                              Yeah, this discussion is ridiculous. Treadmilling means that you've reached a point where salary-cap-wise, draft-wise, and current-roster wise, you've maxed out your assets, and your only ability to actually move forward is to take a significant step back.
                              1. Cap: we've got enough expirings this year that we could acquire a different near-max player to improve the core. As well, other than Biyombo, we've got bird rights on every other important contract on the roster. Getting to the conference finals (and regardless of whether they lose in 4 by 100 points here), is only a positive in terms of attracting free agents.
                              2. Draft: We've got a mid-lottery pick this year! We would have to tank to hard to get anywhere close to that within the near future. Plus four first-rounders (probably) between this year and next.
                              3. Roster: Decent potential for internal growth, both in terms of young players improving and reaching their prime, plus veterans learning how to play smarter and be better leaders.

                              I seem to be different than most, but I'm super-optimistic about where this team is. That doesn't mean I'm super-optimistic about this specific core or any particular players or the coaching staff. That doesn't mean I'm satisfied with getting to the conference finals and getting blown out there. And that doesn't mean that I think they won't take a step backwards next year.
                              Bold: The intention of the OP of this thread reincarnation was to articulate this sentiment. What I was attempting to do is lay out all the decisions/questions that MU will have to address to continue progression of the team. The opposite of this in my view is best described with the term "tread milling".

                              Many posters are wrongly assuming that the achievements so far (the MU tenure) are being described as being treadmilling. I am referring to the immediate future and whether this team has reached a ceiling (a hard one) as currently constituted and faced with a Lebron led team in the East. The compete level is just not pretty to watch. Apart from Lebron they are a deep team. They also pay a hefty tax bill.

                              So, how do we make ourselves better? This is merely aspirational...and not attempting to try (even making hard decisions) is what I call being in a treadmill mindset.

                              Rather than making this a referendum on the treadmill term (not the intention) I would urge the posts tack to suggest what should/could be the best moves made by Masai.

                              Comment


                              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                That doesn't make it any more of a desirable position to be in.
                                Lumping every team together from 30 to 56 wins and calling their status undesirable is dumb.
                                Two beer away from being two beers away.

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