Everything Cory Joseph

[Scraptor]

I think I can probably speak for most of us ready to hand Joseph the reigns, when I say I don't see this team as a championship squad...

...In which case, let's sell it for the parts that are greater than the sum. Lowry, at his best, is a great point guard. He might even be capable of being consistently great enough to contend for a championship with this team...had a PF of LMA's level been added. If Masai can still add a high quality PF without mortgaging the future or trading away too many important cogs, they could compete now and sustainably into the future. That just doesn't seem very likely at this point.

This isn't an appraisal of Lowry's skill level as much as it is seeing this as the fork in the road for this team because of the lacking of other players of Lowry's skill level. So much of contending for championships is about timing: the ages, career arcs and contracts being in synchronicity. This team lacks that synchronicity and is at a point where some crucial decisions need to be made.

I think those who are open to trading Lowry and DD are looking ahead and seeing that we're at or near the crucial time when their value as a trade asset begins to decline (for one reason or another - DD's contract, Lowry's age).

It would just be great for Masai to decide on a definitive direction for the identity of this squad to be charted towards - one way or the other...

But these are two different conversations.

If we were planning to go young and rebuild, then sure, start CoJo, trade Lowry and DeMar and see what happens.

But we did not give Carroll a $60mm deal and use DeMar in the pitch if we planned on going that route. It just isn't happening. I've been pro-tank forever and that is just the reality of the situation.

If we aren't rebuilding, then trading Lowry is in my opinion asking to go to ~35-40 wins and getting even more entrenched on the treadmill.

[WJF]

But these are two different conversations.

If we were planning to go young and rebuild, then sure, start CoJo, trade Lowry and DeMar and see what happens.

But we did not give Carroll a $60mm deal and use DeMar in the pitch if we planned on going that route. It just isn't happening. I've been pro-tank forever and that is just the reality of the situation.

If we aren't rebuilding, then trading Lowry is in my opinion asking to go to ~35-40 wins and getting even more entrenched on the treadmill.

So if Lowry returns an upgrade at the 4 spot and a bench pg vet you don't think we are at least as good as last year? Internal growth of JV, upgrade over Amir, Carroll, DeMar, and Jospeh (or old vet) is a pretty good starting 5.

[SkywalkerAC]

Yeah, you at least have to experiment on the potential fit with Carroll. If the 2-way play can clicks, you roll with it, wheeling and dealing on the trade market with all these assets when the right deal comes up.

You pretty much need three rotation point guards on your roster in this league. You know you can and probably will put all three to good use over 82+ games. You have the potential to play them together - I think Cojo and Delon could be a solid backcourt duo from day 1, but Cojo/Ross will get their chance first and might look great.

Either way, be happy we have 3 good guards. We're going to need em.

[BS10]

I think I can probably speak for most of us ready to hand Joseph the reigns, when I say I don't see this team as a championship squad...

...In which case, let's sell it for the parts that are greater than the sum. Lowry, at his best, is a great point guard. He might even be capable of being consistently great enough to contend for a championship with this team...had a PF of LMA's level been added. If Masai can still add a high quality PF without mortgaging the future or trading away too many important cogs, they could compete now and sustainably into the future. That just doesn't seem very likely at this point.

This isn't an appraisal of Lowry's skill level as much as it is seeing this as the fork in the road for this team because of the lacking of other players of Lowry's skill level. So much of contending for championships is about timing: the ages, career arcs and contracts being in synchronicity. This team lacks that synchronicity and is at a point where some crucial decisions need to be made.

I think those who are open to trading Lowry and DD are looking ahead and seeing that we're at or near the crucial time when their value as a trade asset begins to decline (for one reason or another - DD's contract, Lowry's age).

It would just be great for Masai to decide on a definitive direction for the identity of this squad to be charted towards - one way or the other...

I think Masai will be able to make this decision before the trade deadline where our players value will be more balanced. Coming off that horrendous playoff series, I feel most of the Raptor's players value are at a low point in the trade market, even our "star" players. I think this also affected LMA's decision in which team he wanted to go to as well.

I feel if we were a team that was truly competing for a NBA championship, I think LMA would be a lot more intrigued about joining our squad and made it much more difficult for him during free agency but we didn't really prove it this year in the post season that we were a team that wanted to win or could win.

I'm not saying that LMA would be in fact joining our team but it would have complicated his decision a little bit more. I would still have the Spurs with acquiring him but if we made it to the ECF and went to an unlikely game 7 series with Cleveland, LMA would be a little more interested in joining our team.

Aside from this fantasy, Masai will also have a better understanding of where the team is headed and what changes should be done this year come February. During the all-star break, I think he'll look at our team's chances of making the playoffs and if we're a mediocre 25-25 or around there he'll make a difficult decision. He'll probably make a trade involving one of our bigger names.

He'll cut one of our "stars" in exchange for youth and assets, which will puncture a hole in our ship that will drift towards the lottery. A move similar to what he was trying to do with the Rudy Gay trade which had the reverse effect in what he intended. However, this time the move will actually have the effect he wants. A move that will crush our playoff hopes and increase our chances for the future.

If that player that gets traded happens to be Lowry, I would understand. His value is probably the highest out of all the Raptors because he is no question our best and smartest player. He also has age against him and with every year we hold onto him his value will significantly drop. And at the deadline, he would get us our best return.

I feel with all our young players and all the draft picks that Masai has accumulated, if he makes the proper decisions this year and if we are somewhat lucky we can be a perennial championship contending team for the next 5-10 years. If Masai does decide to pull the plug before the deadline to sink our playoff ship and trade one of our stars, we'll have a shot at a possible 2 lottery picks this year (NYK/Denvers + ours) that will accelerate the process of so much faster of a winning team/franchise.

But a lot of things need to go right for this to work. First, we would have to lose games when one of our star player gets traded and not the opposite to happen, like the Rudy Gay situation. Then we would have to get lucky with the lottery order. Then we would have to draft the proper guys that would help lay that foundation of perennial playoff success, which is perhaps the most difficult part. We would have to get lucky multiple times in order for this plan to succeed.

I'm quite hopeful of the Raptors future though because we have Masai to make those decisions for us and he's had a history of making very good decisions in difficult times. Therefore it shouldn't surprise us of what he's going to do but rather when he's going to do it.

[SkywalkerAC]

cojo isn't really better than greivis.

just different.

Different opens the possibility of better.

[McRealistic]

You almost lost me after saying Ross isn't a starting caliber PF .. I mean I agree with you, but where was that said, anywhere? And where was DD compared to Ross?

I was typing fast and it was meant to be SF. Just made the correction.

Look at post #17 for the DD part and the poll option is "in his natural position" which implies that Ross starting over DD. at SG position.

[SkywalkerAC]

Cojo was brought in to be an excellent backup at the leagues most crucial position, also to play 6th man minutes at the 2 likely. Watch and see HOW he develops. Spurs thought he MIGHT replace Parker, depending on his development.

As of July 8th, 2015, I don't think there is a team in the NBA that would be comfortable having Joseph start on a championship contender.

He's great to have. But a lot of you ready to hand him the reigns are the same people that fret about needing better players at every position to win a championship...

I got it (the sig) -


Tanks they are a NO NO! I'm in love with CA-BO-CLO!

[FromDeep]

But these are two different conversations.

If we were planning to go young and rebuild, then sure, start CoJo, trade Lowry and DeMar and see what happens.

But we did not give Carroll a $60mm deal and use DeMar in the pitch if we planned on going that route. It just isn't happening. I've been pro-tank forever and that is just the reality of the situation.

If we aren't rebuilding, then trading Lowry is in my opinion asking to go to ~35-40 wins and getting even more entrenched on the treadmill.

The point would be to trade DD and anyone else deemed unnecessary to the plan moving forward (2Pat, Carroll once eligible).

As currently constructed, this IS a treadmill team, essentially no better than the Joe Johnson Hawks teams that exemplify the mediocrity Raps fans wish to avoid, Tankers and non-Tankers alike.

[Scraptor]

So if Lowry returns an upgrade at the 4 spot and a bench pg vet you don't think we are at least as good as last year? Internal growth of JV, upgrade over Amir, Carroll, DeMar, and Jospeh (or old vet) is a pretty good starting 5.

I wrote a longer post explaining why, but instead I'll stick to the main points:
-abundance of quality PGs means return on Lowry would not provide sufficient upgrade to replace what he means to this team
-backcourt of CoJo/DeMar would be like a Rondo/Ellis-level pairing for spacing
-no faith in TRoss or Carroll to create offense
-defensively we'd be fine but I think the offense would shudder to a halt

[BobLoblaw]

Ross by far, it's mainly because Lowry-Ross is a lot of shooting, while Cory + Demar is shaky. Also, Lowry is a better player than DeMar. And Cory Joseph would still be there off the bench, playing starter minutes as backup 1 and 2.

[FromDeep]

I wrote a longer post explaining why, but instead I'll stick to the main points:
-abundance of quality PGs means return on Lowry would not provide sufficient upgrade to replace what he means to this team
-backcourt of CoJo/DeMar would be like a Rondo/Ellis-level pairing for spacing
-no faith in TRoss or Carroll to create offense
-defensively we'd be fine but I think the offense would shudder to a halt

There are many quality PGs, but a contender looking for an upgrade or a team that sees itself as one player away from becoming a contender could both be targets.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is a one step process where you trade Lowry and all of a sudden have a re-built team.

[raptors999]

There are many quality PGs, but a contender looking for an upgrade or a team that sees itself as one player away from becoming a contender could both be targets.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is a one step process where you trade Lowry and all of a sudden have a re-built team.

Lots of teams have won without the PG being a superstar. In fact having too much offense from the shortest guy on the court is usually not good

[mjt20mik]

Ross had his chance. He couldn't do anything.

[rightsideup]

I voted neither as I think Ross will be packaged with the 2017 clip 1st rounder for a powerforward such as Kelly o or McRoberts. I do not think we get anyone better and share minutes at powerforward.

[MixxAOR]

Ross had his chance. He couldn't do anything.

what about that development though!!!