Is Freedom of Speech in Canada on Trial in Ontario Case?

[Apollo]

Edit: Nevermind, doesn't matter.

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[Quirk]

This is an interesting study:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0131613

"Gender inequality and sexist behaviour is prevalent in almost all workplaces and rampant in online environments."

[...]

"We show that lower-skilled players were more hostile towards a female-voiced teammate, especially when performing poorly. In contrast, lower-skilled players behaved submissively towards a male-voiced player in the identical scenario. This difference in gender-directed behaviour became more extreme with poorer focal-player performance. We suggest that low-status males increase female-directed hostility to minimize the loss of status as a consequence of hierarchical reconfiguration resulting from the entrance of a woman into the competitive arena. "

[...]

Low-status and low-performing males have the most to lose as a consequence of the hierarchical reconfiguration due to the entry of a competitive woman. As men often rely on aggression to maintain their dominant social status [37], the increase in hostility towards a woman by lower-status males may be an attempt to disregard a female’s performance and suppress her disturbance on the hierarchy to retain their social rank. This idea is reinforced by the fact that higher-skilled males that should not feel threatened by a female increased their number of positive comments.

There is certainly more to the sexist troll phenomenon than simply low skill/ low status, though It's not surprising that this shapes the MRA demographic. While more skillful and successful men would be just as likely to have sexist bias, they are not consumed with rage about it to the point of deciding to harass women online, because women are not as much of a threat to their place in the hierarchy as they are to the low-performing men.

I'm usually wary of "evolutionary" arguments, but it is interesting. Perhaps especially on why men so often respond defensively or with hostility when sexist bias is revealed to them, perhaps they react that way because hostility towards women is what is propping up their fragile self esteem, thus the "butt-hurt man tears" syndrome.

Also, here's a 2012 article about Steph

http://www.torontostandard.com/the-s...hanie-guthrie/

[Quirk]

This was also published in 2012:

http://www.torontostandard.com/daily...or-harassment/

In it, it links to a police report, the report is no longer online, but archive.org has a copy:

https://web.archive.org/web/20121127...e.php?id=25060

In it, it says that Steph asked Gregory Elliot to stop communicating with her in August of 2012, and that he did not, which is consistent with her story that he harassed for 10 months, and only stopped when he was arrested.

Also, the report mentioned that he was arrested not only for harassment, but also for violating a peace bond.

No time to search now, but perhaps there is more info out there on the peace bond?

[Joey]

I'm not trying to get in on this debate, but you can see a record of all tweets sent between them here, for those interested:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...htmlview?pli=1

A friend of mine, who is a blogger with a feminist spin, asked one of Stephs friends if the Spreadsheet was accurate, and she was subsequently bombarded with messages such as "you're an asshole, fuck you you goddamn idiot, you're a woman hater, you're disgusting, you have internalized misogyny", and then was Blocked ... that quote is from her...

Again, not taking sides, because I've seen some of the stuff that that same friend has had to deal with from Men, so I know that there is an absolute attitude problem on the Internet when it comes to respecting women that needs to be addressed ... but this case just stinks. I want to believe there is something we are missing.

[Apollo]

Joey, there is an attitude problem when it comes to respecting everyone on the internet. It seems worse for women but they're not alone. As long as people in general have a false sense of anonominity they will continue to say things they'd dare not say to people's faces. With time I think this will change as the culture catches up with the Internet, and people become even more integrated with the Internet.

For what it's worth I think the Internet is a much more respectful place than what you would see ten years ago. Also there have been people held accountable for despicable online actions and I think this will no doubt deter some from acting in a similar fashion. There's also more awareness in schools. The Internet will become less and less a sewer where people "sign in" to take a dump on others.


Side note, I looked at a few of those Tweets and just stopped. Not a fun thing to read about on the weekend when I'm supposed to be relaxing for the next week. Wow.

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[Axel]

. The Internet will become less and less a sewer where people "sign in" to take a dump on others.

Except RealGM of course

Seriously though, raising a young daughter in this world is scary when you think of all the potential pitfalls for women (especially teens) in modern society.

Living in Nova Scotia, the Rehtaeh Parsons case is the one people most often think of, but the list is really endless.

At the end of day, I treat women the way I want men to treat my daughter when she is older. Little man will learn the same lessons.

[Apollo]

Good way to look at it Axel. Seems like you and I are on the same page with a lot of things, not just football and basketball.

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[JimiCliff]

I'm not trying to get in on this debate, but you can see a record of all tweets sent between them here, for those interested:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...htmlview?pli=1

A friend of mine, who is a blogger with a feminist spin, asked one of Stephs friends if the Spreadsheet was accurate, and she was subsequently bombarded with messages such as "you're an asshole, fuck you you goddamn idiot, you're a woman hater, you're disgusting, you have internalized misogyny", and then was Blocked ... that quote is from her...

Again, not taking sides, because I've seen some of the stuff that that same friend has had to deal with from Men, so I know that there is an absolute attitude problem on the Internet when it comes to respecting women that needs to be addressed ... but this case just stinks. I want to believe there is something we are missing.

Wow. Reading those tweets, I can completely understand the harassment charge. Is he guilty? Not sure. But this certainly isn't the baseless case that the National Post suggested it was.

Edit: And I'll add, Blatchford's interpretation of why he was standing trial:

Indeed, Elliott’s chief sin appears to have been that he dared to disagree with the two young feminists and political activists.

...is insane. Clearly much more going on there.

[Miekenstien]

do you have to open the twitter links to see what he said? i can't do that. god damn it. just read all the stuff that was on the side, didn't look bad.

[Joey]

do you have to open the twitter links to see what he said? i can't do that. god damn it. just read all the stuff that was on the side, didn't look bad.

The ones highlighted in yellow are her tweets, the ones in white are his. The ones at the Top are the most recent. The bottom is older.
You don't need to open them, you can read them on the side there.

Ya, what stood out to me was how she had called him "sweet" among other niceties only a few months before the whole disagreement over the Doxing the Sault St. Marie kid. They were definitely chummy at some point, with him offering her rides when she broke her leg and supporting some of her past endeavours.

I think where the "harassment" issue could arise is the sheer volume of tweets from him after she had asked him to stop messaging her and mentioning her "and smeering her work". Which I didn't really see in his tweets, but perhaps there is other mediums with which they've communicated or crossed paths.

Also, one tweet I'm sure Stephs attorneys will point to to call his character into question is the one about "motorboating a very large breasted woman.", and hashtagging #amirightfolks, which is Steph's Twitter handle; or just saying "am I right folks".. hard to say.

[Miekenstien]

The ones highlighted in yellow are her tweets, the ones in white are his. The ones at the Top are the most recent. The bottom is older.
You don't need to open them, you can read them on the side there.

Ya, what stood out to me was how she had called him "sweet" among other niceties only a few months before the whole disagreement over the Doxing the Sault St. Marie kid. They were definitely chummy at some point, with him offering her rides when she broke her leg and supporting some of her past endeavours.

I think where the "harassment" issue could arise is the sheer volume of tweets from him after she had asked him to stop messaging her and mentioning her "and smeering her work". Which I didn't really see in his tweets, but perhaps there is other mediums with which they've communicated or crossed paths.

Also, one tweet I'm sure Stephs attorneys will point to to call his character into question is the one about "motorboating a very large breasted woman.", and hashtagging #amirightfolks, which is Steph's Twitter handle; or just saying "am I right folks".. hard to say.

thank you, i didn't see any threats etc. also doesn't seem this is because she is a woman. more like just at a woman. i guess virtual restraining orders might become a thing now.

i've seen better trolling.

"I am making an example of you, to send a message out to people everywhere: that if you want to hurt another human being, you'd better make damn sure they're the same color as you are!"
south park episode 200

[Quirk]

Good way to look at it Axel. Seems like you and I are on the same page with a lot of things, not just football and basketball.

Just to recap, you started this by thread automatically taking the side of a sexist troll against a women claiming harassment, thought it was "crazy and scary" that the case was being heard by the court at all, while never giving a seconds thought to her side of the story, all the while getting all your information from anti-feminist hate media, which you posted here, in fact your whole framing has been the standard MRA hate framing the entire time "illegal to disagree with feminists online, etc"

You think this is what Axel is saying he wants for his daughters when they get older? I doubt it.

You really need to honestly reflect on your attitudes, Apollo. Do you often consume and sympathize with MRA hate media? Or is this an anomaly?

[Quirk]

As for the conspiracy, you have to consider it a possibility. Apparently the police investigated; it'd be interesting to know what they found.

At the very least he violated a peace bond, I haven't found too much information about it online, but from context it would seem that the guy was given a restraining order to stop harassing Steph and perhaps others on Twitter, and did not stop. That is against the law, afaik.

[Apollo]

Just to recap, you started this by thread automatically taking the side of a sexist troll against a women claiming harassment, thought it was "crazy and scary" that the case was being heard by the court at all, while never giving a seconds thought to her side of the story, all the while getting all your information from anti-feminist hate media, which you posted here, in fact your whole framing has been the standard MRA hate framing the entire time "illegal to disagree with feminists online, etc"

You think this is what Axel is saying he wants for his daughters when they get older? I doubt it.

You really need to honestly reflect on your attitudes, Apollo. Do you often consume and sympathize with MRA hate media? Or is this an anomaly?

You're like a broken, judgemental record. My first post was formed based on the police investigation. The police testified no evidence of harassment. This is why I took the other side, because what such a thing might mean to free speech for all sexes, races and beliefs(ie: suddenly the police, who I've always respected and trusted and still do respect and trust with my safety my life and all those I love and care about, said no wrong doing and yet there is somehow wrong doing?). I made it clear it had nothing to do with sex, race, beliefs and all to do with what the police could find to prove harassment and where it went regardless.

You're the one who took up the pitch fork and torch because the other side happened to be a woman. You're the one in here trying to shame me for daring to take the other side and flat out calling me sexist because only a sexist would ever possibly not take the side of a woman in any scenario. You then began to spew insults and "information" you chose to not backup with anything. Later someone finally provided real information, backed up with a source, contrary to the Post but it was not you. You then later, days later, started actually bringing things other than opinion and personal tales of what you heard from whoever. Once new, substantiated information was presented I clearly backed off my stance.

You should reflect on your own life, question how happy your life could possibly be going around quick to fly off the handle and cast judgement on those who do not agree with you. You immediately assume and still do that any man, not blindly defending any woman is sexist. You're aggressive, hard headed, bullying and unable to see much past your high horse. I have some simple rules in life, give people respect until they don't deserve it anymore and don't waste time talking to bigots and so I'm done here talking to you, you're not worth my time.

To everyone else, I have all the respect in the world for women and I can't for the life of me believe I feel compelled to state that because of this crazy person. Those around here who know me, who know what I'm about, know that this guy couldn't be further from the truth about who I am, what I think and do. I have had many important, strong women in my life and I love and respect them all. I work with women every day and have friendships with women.

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[Apollo]

OK, thread locked. I've tolerated far, far more than I would ever expect any other poster to tolerate.

I'm not banning you Quirk, because I hate to do it despite taking it square on the chin from you for days. Let's move on if you can't operate in this thread in any other way than being abusive toward me.