The feeling of seeing Masai Ujiri doing work in comparison to Bryan Colangelo

[DanH]

Colangelo has two executive of the year awards to Ujiri's one.

Nineteen years of GM experience to Ujiri's five.

Colangelo's draft history is far, far superior with Michael Finley, Stephen Jackson, Steve Nash, Shaun Mario, Amare Stoudemire, DeMar DeRozan, and JV all being some names he's brought in.

People forget about guys he traded for like Joe Johnson, who had proven nothing before coming to the Suns and then went off. Colangelo was no fluke in Phoenix, no one is that lucky, but he no doubt didn't get it to work in Toronto.

I liked the guy. I think he knows his stuff and should be employed somewhere in the league for as long as he's interested.

I always thought BC was capable, but it is worth noting that in PHX he had his father, a brilliant long term basketball mind, there as a consultant through his entire tenure.

A lot of the issues when BC was here was ownership. But that doesn't excuse the mess he made of this team.

[JWash]

With Masai I get the feeling his moves are calculated and part of a bigger picture/plan.

With Colangelo I always felt like he was trying to make a splash and then sales pitch. And towards the end of his tenure it seemed like he was just trying to save his job.

[S.R.]

With Masai I get the feeling his moves are calculated and part of a bigger picture/plan.

With Colangelo I always felt like he was trying to make a splash and then sales pitch. And towards the end of his tenure it seemed like he was just trying to save his job.

MU definitely has a multi-year plan. Yeah, with BC it really felt like he had a new 1-year plan every summer.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I just look at the bargs trade nough said.... we could have traded for david lee...but instead we got cap flexibility and what is shaping up as one of the best picks we have ever traded for.... heck we may beable to honestly package a top 10 pick and our.....18-20 pick for a top 7 or 5 pick.

[JWash]

So guys if the NYK/DEN pick ends up landing us a star. Can we say that Bargs #1 overall in 2006 wasn't a bust lmao? I mean it would've only taken a decade for him to "develop" into a star lol

Inb4 BC comes back and is like "I always knew that Bargnani would make an excellent trade chip and convert into great value one decade down the line"

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Not much of a BC fan, but last time I checked, Masai was still living off of BC's roster/team.

Lowry, DD, JV, Ross and even the head coach were ALL Colangelo acquisitions. No disrespect to Masai but I feel he gets a little bit too much credit at times. Until he can bring in players, BETTER than what he inherited when he took the job, I'll reserve the accolades for what a great GM he is.

Also, if any/all of the following happen, MU will suddenly be looking a lot more BC-esque:

- Carroll's success proves to be a product of playing in Atlanta's inside-out team oriented offense (Turkoglu 2.0?)

- Joseph's success proves to be a product of playing in SA's HOF-based team oriented system (at least he's Canadian, eh?)

- Scola's age catches up to him (O'Neal 2.0?)


--

So far, I've been most impressed with MU's patience (was BC's 'swing for the fences' approach his fault, or the directive from those above him?) and ability to turn garbage into useful assets (but wasn't undoing mistakes - Hedo for Barbosa - one of BC's strengths?), while sticking to his long-term team building plan.

We won't truly know what sort of GM MU is until he uses his cap flexibility (I'm slightly skeptical about him overpaying for an older role player) and the assets he's acquired (ie: how do his draft picks work out - Bruno, Daniels, Wright and Powell - and what does he do with the 4 1st round picks he's likely to have over the next two drafts?).

I don't see this really being "MU's team" until 2017 or 2018, which is actually quite a masterful move on his part, since that's about the time his 5-year contract will be up!

[DanH]

How is Carroll in any way like Hedo? Hedo was bad before we got him, had a decent playoff run and then was signed by BC. Carroll was actually good last year. Even if he proves to be a mistake, it won't be a repeat of Hedo, which was clearly a mistake the instant it happened.

Worse than that though is the Scola-O'Neal comparison. O'Neal had two years with a massive salary left and BC traded a first round pick for him (and then another to get rid of him). Scola signed for 3M for one year at no asset cost. I can't imagine how you think the two are in any way similar.

[JWash]

How is Carroll in any way like Hedo? Hedo was bad before we got him, had a decent playoff run and then was signed by BC. Carroll was actually good last year. Even if he proves to be a mistake, it won't be a repeat of Hedo, which was clearly a mistake the instant it happened.

Worse than that though is the Scola-O'Neal comparison. O'Neal had two years with a massive salary left and BC traded a first round pick for him (and then another to get rid of him). Scola signed for 3M for one year at no asset cost. I can't imagine how you think the two are in any way similar.

Yeah I didn't really understand those comparisons. I wouldn't say Hedo was bad per se but he was effectively playing point guard/point-forward in Orlando and benefitting a lot statistically from being on a team with a lot of really dangerous shooters and of course Dwight who was the best pick and roll partner anyone could have back then.

Carroll might have a bit tougher time getting open looks here, but tbh I don't actually see why he would. While we don't move the ball as well as ATL, Lowry and DD were able to create a lot of open looks from 3 for Ross and 2Pat last year with their dribble penetration.

Plus the things Carroll does (3 point shooting, defense, a little bit of a drive game too) are things that translate from team to team. The only time he'd really struggle is if you tried to overextend him beyond his role and make him a shot creator or iso guy.

Wasn't JO on the books for like 21M the year we got him and 23M the next? Plus we traded TJ Ford and what turned out to be Hibbert for him which were significant assets... then shipped him WITH picks for nothing essentially. Scola we got for free on a 1yr/3M deal with no risk and no long-term liability. Do not see how that's similar at all.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

How is Carroll in any way like Hedo? Hedo was bad before we got him, had a decent playoff run and then was signed by BC. Carroll was actually good last year. Even if he proves to be a mistake, it won't be a repeat of Hedo, which was clearly a mistake the instant it happened.

Worse than that though is the Scola-O'Neal comparison. O'Neal had two years with a massive salary left and BC traded a first round pick for him (and then another to get rid of him). Scola signed for 3M for one year at no asset cost. I can't imagine how you think the two are in any way similar.

I probably should have left the comparisons out. I was trying to point out potential parallels, rather than actually comparing them in terms of magnitude/impact. They are moves that look good on paper, but could just as easily fail. You're absolutely right about one thing - if they do fail, they are short-term and/or easily movable contracts. The acquisitions didn't cost the Raptors anything more than money, and are far from being albatross-type deals.

[DanH]

Yeah I didn't really understand those comparisons. I wouldn't say Hedo was bad per se but he was effectively playing point guard/point-forward in Orlando and benefitting a lot statistically from being on a team with a lot of really dangerous shooters and of course Dwight who was the best pick and roll partner anyone could have back then.

Carroll might have a bit tougher time getting open looks here, but tbh I don't actually see why he would. While we don't move the ball as well as ATL, Lowry and DD were able to create a lot of open looks from 3 for Ross and 2Pat last year with their dribble penetration.

Plus the things Carroll does (3 point shooting, defense, a little bit of a drive game too) are things that translate from team to team. The only time he'd really struggle is if you tried to overextend him beyond his role and make him a shot creator or iso guy.

Wasn't JO on the books for like 21M the year we got him and 23M the next? Plus we traded TJ Ford and what turned out to be Hibbert for him which were significant assets... then shipped him WITH picks for nothing essentially. Scola we got for free on a 1yr/3M deal with no risk and no long-term liability. Do not see how that's similar at all.

That last year in ORL Hedo had a sub-15 PER and a barely above average WS/48 (.125). A guy on the downside of his career experiencing drop offs in PER, TS%, REB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, and WS/48 in his contract year should have been a massive red flag.

I agree that Carroll is nothing like Hedo. But ultimately for me it comes down to Carroll having a great year versus Hedo having a poor one. It does help that Carroll will be slotting into Ross' role anyway, though.

As a note, it wasn't something that turned out to be Hibbert. It was Hibbert. Trade was executed post-draft (though was agreed upon immediately before, so Indy told the Raps who to pick).

[Primer]

Also, if any/all of the following happen, MU will suddenly be looking a lot more BC-esque:

- Carroll's success proves to be a product of playing in Atlanta's inside-out team oriented offense (Turkoglu 2.0?)

- Joseph's success proves to be a product of playing in SA's HOF-based team oriented system (at least he's Canadian, eh?)

- Scola's age catches up to him (O'Neal 2.0?)


--

So far, I've been most impressed with MU's patience (was BC's 'swing for the fences' approach his fault, or the directive from those above him?) and ability to turn garbage into useful assets (but wasn't undoing mistakes - Hedo for Barbosa - one of BC's strengths?), while sticking to his long-term team building plan.

We won't truly know what sort of GM MU is until he uses his cap flexibility (I'm slightly skeptical about him overpaying for an older role player) and the assets he's acquired (ie: how do his draft picks work out - Bruno, Daniels, Wright and Powell - and what does he do with the 4 1st round picks he's likely to have over the next two drafts?).

I don't see this really being "MU's team" until 2017 or 2018, which is actually quite a masterful move on his part, since that's about the time his 5-year contract will be up!

If these guys fail because of our offensive system then that's on Casey and not them. The blueprint for a successful offense is out there, and it's not that hard to implement. SA and Atlanta's offense puts everyone on the team in their best position to succeed. We should be copying them, not trying to force Carroll and Joseph into our shit iso no-motion offense.

[JWash]

That last year in ORL Hedo had a sub-15 PER and a barely above average WS/48 (.125). A guy on the downside of his career experiencing drop offs in PER, TS%, REB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, and WS/48 in his contract year should have been a massive red flag.

I agree that Carroll is nothing like Hedo. But ultimately for me it comes down to Carroll having a great year versus Hedo having a poor one. It does help that Carroll will be slotting into Ross' role anyway, though.

As a note, it wasn't something that turned out to be Hibbert. It was Hibbert. Trade was executed post-draft (though was agreed upon immediately before, so Indy told the Raps who to pick).

Hmm good point on Hedo, to be fair I didn't look at his stats just assumed he was pretty good that year. Guess not according to advanced stats. I remember being pretty annoyed by the signing though lol cause Hedo was famous for just shooting a 3 in pick and roll situations instead of actually running the damn set.

And you're right about Hibbert, I forgot that deal actually happened after the draft technically.

[ebrian]

Colangelo has two executive of the year awards to Ujiri's one.

Nineteen years of GM experience to Ujiri's five.

Colangelo's draft history is far, far superior with Michael Finley, Stephen Jackson, Steve Nash, Shaun Mario, Amare Stoudemire, DeMar DeRozan, and JV all being some names he's brought in.

People forget about guys he traded for like Joe Johnson, who had proven nothing before coming to the Suns and then went off. Colangelo was no fluke in Phoenix, no one is that lucky, but he no doubt didn't get it to work in Toronto.

I liked the guy. I think he knows his stuff and should be employed somewhere in the league for as long as he's interested.

My view of Bryan Colangelo's previous experience prior to that of Toronto's will always remain cloudy. I'm not completely convinced that he deserves credit for all the choices prior to those made for Toronto. I remember when BC came to Toronto that there was a whole bunch of talk about BC finally moving away from under his dad's shadow. I think the reason for a lot of that talk was because although he was "General Manager" for those Suns' teams, he wasn't the guy actually holding the puppet strings, if you catch my meaning.

[Apollo]

That's speculation and not really fair. Behind all young success stories is a strong mentor I'd imagine.

Let's take credit from all GMs and give it to the Presidents.

Now then, if I remember correctly he left Phoenix to get away from Sarver, not his father.

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[Apollo]

How is Carroll in any way like Hedo? Hedo was bad before we got him, had a decent playoff run and then was signed by BC. Carroll was actually good last year. Even if he proves to be a mistake, it won't be a repeat of Hedo, which was clearly a mistake the instant it happened.

Worse than that though is the Scola-O'Neal comparison. O'Neal had two years with a massive salary left and BC traded a first round pick for him (and then another to get rid of him). Scola signed for 3M for one year at no asset cost. I can't imagine how you think the two are in any way similar.

We need to remember the system Colangelo was running at the time. It called for a versatile wing who could handle and create. He didn't have it, but needed to prove to Bosh immediately that this club could support him in contending for a championship. He took a bad bet in my opinion on a guy who looked like he fit the bill and who might have been coming into his prime and hitting a new level. He could play four positions as well. Turned out what he got was a guy who dialled it in on a contract year in the playoffs. I remember this place being torn about the contract. Some believed, some didn't but we all hoped it would work out. No one had a clue he would show up only in body and not in spirit.

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