The feeling of seeing Masai Ujiri doing work in comparison to Bryan Colangelo

[Primer]

Remember when BC gave away a 2nd round pick for Sebastian Telfair, that was awesome.....

[Apollo]

Telfair did more in the league than most 2nd round picks. Seen them burned on worst stuff by Colangelo and others. Anyone know how that pick turned out?

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[Marz]

Colangelo's big mistake, in my opinion, was trading away Jermaine O'Neal. The trade for O'Neal only made sense at the time because he was going to be a massive expiring contract in a great free agency class (recall LBJ, Bosh, and Wade)*. It made so much sense to just hold on to him until then. Instead, by trading him to Miami they reaped the rewards (it also lead to the signing of Hedo... my most hated player long before we signed him... ugh).

* I am not saying the Raptors could have landed Wade+LBJ+Bosh. But they basically made it very easy for Miami to do so.

With that being said, Masai is not infallible. The reason people seem more comfortable with him as GM is because he is much more risk averse, which is in contrast to a GM in Colangelo who only took risks. However, at least the risks Colangelo took made more sense than the ones Babcock took. If you want the real reason why the Raptors have taken so long to get to this point, look no further than Rob Babcock.

[3inthekeon]

Telfair did more in the league than most 2nd round picks. Seen them burned on worst stuff by Colangelo and others. Anyone know how that pick turned out?

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Except the Raptors were 22-33 when the trade went down. They should have been trading players for picks, not the other way around for a soon to be UFA. . But BC had already traded the first round pick to Houston. It almost seemed he wanted the Raptors to not sink too low, to prevent media backlash if the 1st rounder would have been too good.

[Apollo]

So you're saying he decided to win so he wouldn't look bad in the public eye? Don't most teams do that? We're going to slam him for trying to win now? Sheeesh.

Also I wipe my butt with 2nd round picks. You're forgetting how often they fail, they're almost a waste of time to even talk about they fail that frequently.

I wouldn't have been impressed if he was collecting 2nds and then bragging about it. I'd think he was full of it.

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[psrs1]

How is Carroll in any way like Hedo? Hedo was bad before we got him, had a decent playoff run and then was signed by BC. Carroll was actually good last year. Even if he proves to be a mistake, it won't be a repeat of Hedo, which was clearly a mistake the instant it happened.

Worse than that though is the Scola-O'Neal comparison. O'Neal had two years with a massive salary left and BC traded a first round pick for him (and then another to get rid of him). Scola signed for 3M for one year at no asset cost. I can't imagine how you think the two are in any way similar.

DeMarre's mental make up is totally different from Hedo's. I don't expect to hear stories of DeMarre out at Mortons at Avenue Rd and Bloor frequently until 2am even on nights before afternoon games.

[3inthekeon]

So you're saying he decided to win so he wouldn't look bad in the public eye? Don't most teams do that? We're going to slam him for trying to win now? Sheeesh.

Also I wipe my butt with 2nd round picks. You're forgetting how often they fail, they're almost a waste of time to even talk about they fail that frequently.

I wouldn't have been impressed if he was collecting 2nds and then bragging about it. I'd think he was full of it.

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No, teams that aren't going to make the playoffs anyway should trade for picks, not trade picks for marginal upgrades that are going to walk at seasons end. And if you wipe your butt with 2nd rounders, you must not have faith in your draft talent evaluation..

[Apollo]

It's the east. 10 games below 500 isn't a death sentence at the point in the season. The guy has more experience running teams than many of us have casually watching games. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

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[Primer]

It's the east. 10 games below 500 isn't a death sentence at the point in the season. The guy has more experience running teams than many of us have casually watching games. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

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As had been said ad nauseum elsewhere in the forums, arguments of this kind are the dumbest. e.g. you can't criticize Casey's coaching because he has more coaching experience then you ever will.

Trading a 2nd rounder for a half season rental of a shitty backup PG was dumb as hell, and I bet every GM in the league would agree with me. BC was grasping at straws to try and save his job, a 22-33 team shouldn't be trading away assets for an ill fated playoff push.

[JWash]

As had been said ad nauseum elsewhere in the forums, arguments of this kind are the dumbest. e.g. you can't criticize Casey's coaching because he has more coaching experience then you ever will.

Trading a 2nd rounder for a half season rental of a shitty backup PG was dumb as hell, and I bet every GM in the league would agree with me. BC was grasping at straws to try and save his job, a 22-33 team shouldn't be trading away assets for an ill fated playoff push.

Yup. Not sure how anyone can defend that.

To even go .500 we needed to go 19-8. A 22-33 team does not just magically start playing .700 basketball. Throwing away a high 2nd round pick for a 3rd string PG was beyond idiotic.

[3inthekeon]

Teams that aren't going to make the playoffs usually trade For draft picks, not trade draft picks for marginal inprovements that will walk at seasons end.

2nd round - Deandre Jordan, Paul Millsap, Marc Gasol, Draymond Green, Danny Green, Marcin Gortat, Kyle Korver and many more.

[DanH]

We need to remember the system Colangelo was running at the time. It called for a versatile wing who could handle and create. He didn't have it, but needed to prove to Bosh immediately that this club could support him in contending for a championship. He took a bad bet in my opinion on a guy who looked like he fit the bill and who might have been coming into his prime and hitting a new level. He could play four positions as well. Turned out what he got was a guy who dialled it in on a contract year in the playoffs. I remember this place being torn about the contract. Some believed, some didn't but we all hoped it would work out. No one had a clue he would show up only in body and not in spirit.

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Not the least bit true. The system required a good rebounder and defender at the wing. The team had a good chunk of success with Marion there, ruining a good draft pick in the process.

It was Colangelo's view of his system that was flawed - he thought he needed that wing player who could help offensively. Well, the Raptors had one of the best offences in the league that year. Good job Colangelo. Of course, they got demolished on the boards and set records for defensive ineptitude, leading to missing the playoffs in the key convince-Bosh-to-stay season, but don't let me tell Colangelo, brilliant basketball mind, how to build a team.

[JawsGT]

If these guys fail because of our offensive system then that's on Casey and not them. The blueprint for a successful offense is out there, and it's not that hard to implement. SA and Atlanta's offense puts everyone on the team in their best position to succeed. We should be copying them, not trying to force Carroll and Joseph into our shit iso no-motion offense.

This is by far my biggest concern for the upcoming season. If management's pitch to Carroll of giving him a greater role in the offence translates to more opportunities for him to try and create offence in ISO or the Raps patented 'screen and drive' offence, then we are doomed for next season, regardless of how much the D improves. I have had confidence in the roster for the last two seasons (even with Rudy) and confidant in the roster for this upcoming season (I know it's not a contending roster), but I have little confidence in the coaching staff to implement a system that really gets these guys to play at a high level consistently. After that Rudy trade the team looked like a cohesive unit that was really trying to accomplish something. And then last season happened. A repeat of that this year and I may truly wish the team had tanked two seasons ago.

[Miekenstien]

Not the least bit true. The system required a good rebounder and defender at the wing. The team had a good chunk of success with Marion there, ruining a good draft pick in the process.

It was Colangelo's view of his system that was flawed - he thought he needed that wing player who could help offensively. Well, the Raptors had one of the best offences in the league that year. Good job Colangelo. Of course, they got demolished on the boards and set records for defensive ineptitude, leading to missing the playoffs in the key convince-Bosh-to-stay season, but don't let me tell Colangelo, brilliant basketball mind, how to build a team.

bosh blew that on purpose

[tonious35]

That last year in ORL Hedo had a sub-15 PER and a barely above average WS/48 (.125). A guy on the downside of his career experiencing drop offs in PER, TS%, REB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, and WS/48 in his contract year should have been a massive red flag.

I agree that Carroll is nothing like Hedo. But ultimately for me it comes down to Carroll having a great year versus Hedo having a poor one. It does help that Carroll will be slotting into Ross' role anyway, though.

As a note, it wasn't something that turned out to be Hibbert. It was Hibbert. Trade was executed post-draft (though was agreed upon immediately before, so Indy told the Raps who to pick).

BUT....Carroll cannot dance like Hedo: