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OK. Markieff Morris a Raptor? Really??

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  • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    But that thread is being beaten to a dead horse.

    I don't think either side has offered anything new in quite some time.

    See post in other thread for more related to it.
    Fair enough but one should have their own choice whether or not to participate--that choice should not be made for them.

    Comment


    • psrs1 wrote: View Post
      Fair enough but one should have their own choice whether or not to participate--that choice should not be made for them.
      I think they just need a break from the 'reports'

      Use to drive me nuts.

      Not about choice to participate - it is about posters, voluntary posters and participants in discussion, annoying the hell with reports.

      They are human too. And Doc pays shit around here, I can vouch for that! I think they need a break from the behind the scene drama.

      Comment


      • Your starter has to go out and "step-up" against a LeBron (or whomever - the very best NBA players) night after night. It doesn't matter that your starter isn't as good as LeBron (whomever). He's first up. And you give him that. Because somebody's got to do it. Night after night. ... And that's why I don't go "cheap" on Markieff. Because that's what he's done - and more than lived to tell about it. Patrick's being a bench player is an implicit acknowledgment that he lacks the skill-set to handle the LeBrons (whomever). Maybe he blossoms (I hope he does - here or in Phoenix. I like a happy ending) ... but if he doesn't we've either got a flat-tire - or we've got Scola.

        (meanwhile ... All's Quiet on the Western Front ...)

        So go ahead, argue the stats, the analytics. You're entitled. But I don't think Coach Casey reads them the same way. And I'm guessing he had some sort of chat with the guy who (finally) brought Scola in, before he quickly anointed Scola the starter. Maybe not. Anyway, I think you're betting on a good guy - but a guy who is a "place-holder" on a team that looks - maybe - like they might be one better guy away from an Eastern Conference final. Before that big 2016 draft. Etc. ...

        I think maybe now it comes down to Terrence. And other bids ... and time for Masai to try to "work it" ...
        Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 26, 2015, 04:32 AM.

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        • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
          Your starter has to go out and "step-up" against a LeBron (or whomever - the very best NBA players) night after night. It doesn't matter that your starter isn't as good as LeBron (whomever). He's first up. And you give him that. Because somebody's got to do it. Night after night. ... And that's why I don't go "cheap" on Markieff. Because that's what he's done - and more than lived to tell about it. Patrick's being a bench player is an implicit acknowledgment that he lacks the skill-set to handle the LeBrons (whomever). Maybe he blossoms (I hope he does - here or in Phoenix. I like a happy ending) ... but if he doesn't we've either got a flat-tire - or we've got Scola.

          (meanwhile ... All's Quiet on the Western Front ...)

          So go ahead, argue the stats, the analytics. You're entitled. But I don't think Coach Casey reads them the same way. And I'm guessing he had some sort of chat with the guy who (finally) brought Scola in, before he quickly anointed Scola the starter. Maybe not. Anyway, I think you're betting on a good guy - but a guy who is a "place-holder" on a team that looks - maybe - like they might be one better guy away from an Eastern Conference final. Before that big 2016 draft. Etc. ...

          I think maybe now it comes down to Terrence. And other bids ... and time for Masai to try to "work it" ...
          You seriously need to watch this guy play. The way you talk about him just does not jive with reality in the slightest. Hyperbole like going against Lebron and living to tell about it isn't a good argument to trade for Morris. He also went against Duncan and didn't live to tell about, shooting 1-13. Can't gloss over the bad games, and he has a lot of them. 15 points (.465 FG) 6 rebounds per game is not starting caliber PF. I'm down with upgrading the PF position but Markieff is not an upgrade.

          Also, completely bizarre to discount stats and analytics when they've been proven over and over again to be the best measure of a player. The fact that none of the stats or analytics says Morris is a really good PF is telling to me. Is your whole argument for Morris that he had a good game against Cleveland, cause I haven't seen you argue much else?

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          • Primer wrote: View Post
            You seriously need to watch this guy play. The way you talk about him just does not jive with reality in the slightest. Hyperbole like going against Lebron and living to tell about it isn't a good argument to trade for Morris. He also went against Duncan and didn't live to tell about, shooting 1-13. Can't gloss over the bad games, and he has a lot of them. 15 points (.465 FG) 6 rebounds per game is not starting caliber PF. I'm down with upgrading the PF position but Markieff is not an upgrade.

            Also, completely bizarre to discount stats and analytics when they've been proven over and over again to be the best measure of a player. The fact that none of the stats or analytics says Morris is a really good PF is telling to me. Is your whole argument for Morris that he had a good game against Cleveland, cause I haven't seen you argue much else?
            Markieff is just the better overall talent. Patterson has never been able to hold a starting job where ever his been. His a bench player. I'm starting to think Scola might just start over him. His killing in Fiba right now.
            @Chr1st1anL

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            • Primer wrote: View Post
              You seriously need to watch this guy play. The way you talk about him just does not jive with reality in the slightest. Hyperbole like going against Lebron and living to tell about it isn't a good argument to trade for Morris. He also went against Duncan and didn't live to tell about, shooting 1-13. Can't gloss over the bad games, and he has a lot of them. 15 points (.465 FG) 6 rebounds per game is not starting caliber PF. I'm down with upgrading the PF position but Markieff is not an upgrade.

              Also, completely bizarre to discount stats and analytics when they've been proven over and over again to be the best measure of a player. The fact that none of the stats or analytics says Morris is a really good PF is telling to me. Is your whole argument for Morris that he had a good game against Cleveland, cause I haven't seen you argue much else?
              Well, I have watched him play. But my "take" doesn't rely on my personal evaluation. My argument is:

              1. I know you ignore stats at your peril. Still, they have methodological flaws and often can't account for the context/role a player is put in. It seems you get a very different view looking at Drtg vs. DRPM, for example, for Markieff.
              2. As I read it, your take is at odds with assessments of Markieff around the league - including by others aware of the stats. You're not his only detractor (even character issues aside). But it seems he's generally considered a more talented, versatile (and aggressive, and "clutch") player.
              3. He has earned, and kept, a starter's role in the tougher conference (and not just against LeBron - that's not a fair reading of what I said). Drubbings by a Tim Duncan are something you protect a Patterson from, is my point. Markieff's stats are a product of that tougher role, too.

              It seems clear the Raps didn't let Amir go to give Patterson his chance. Rather, Amir is also more highly regarded than Patterson, league-wide - and beloved. But not good enough for the Raps going forward on a richer, multi-year deal.

              Scola has ignored Patterson's (unwise, I think) claim that the starting job is "his to lose". Scola is a cool head. The coach has publicly differed. But only Masai can lay to rest the speculation about Morris. No one has addressed this point. Sometimes silence really does speak volumes. Still, no guarantees ...

              But they're young guys. Who really knows? I just think there's a better argument to be made for Markieff, and that he's a little like "found money" on that delicious 4-year contract he was bamboozled into, in today's market. And tomorrow's. And so on.

              As such, I find the "should Masai give up T-Ross ... or Bebe?" discussion more topical. Given my higher "take" on Morris, I think you've got to give some real value. For me, Masai's magic would consist of keeping T-Ross. Maybe for you (as for most) it's found in keeping Patterson and getting Markieff. But then ... Scola (who can't be traded 'til December)?

              No chance Masai saw this coming, by the way - when Marcus was traded? No whispers?

              Anyway, hope this isn't aggravating to you, Primer. I do. I'm not holding myself out as more knowledgeable. I enjoy these discussions. But I'm taking the other side here, is all ... as I think it's there for the taking. Anyway, who bats a 1.000 in these things?
              Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 26, 2015, 05:10 PM.

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              • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                Markieff is just the better overall talent. Patterson has never been able to hold a starting job where ever his been. His a bench player. I'm starting to think Scola might just start over him. His killing in Fiba right now.
                Yeah, funny the discussion has focused around Markieff versus Patterson, when Scola is slated to start. Though Patterson's youth has to be part of this. But I see Scola as the "placeholder" and Patterson as the left-over back-up. Just my view.

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                • Wild-ling#1 wrote: View Post
                  Yeah, funny the discussion has focused around Markieff versus Patterson, when Scola is slated to start. Though Patterson's youth has to be part of this. But I see Scola as the "placeholder" and Patterson as the left-over back-up. Just my view.
                  If your starting Scola with JV

                  Oh boy I wanna see how they scramble around with those 2
                  "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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                  • Other than shooting the 3 what does 2pat do better than Scola?
                    @Chr1st1anL

                    Comment


                    • Though it's an old article (Aug 10th) here is some commentary, with stats, per Bleacher report:

                      http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...arkieff-morris

                      "Patterson is solid, and he's shooting 37 percent from downtown for his career. He even put in 38.3 percent of his catch-and-shoot treys last season, rendering him a legitimate off-ball threat. Morris is more of a game-changer, though. He obliterated Patterson's per-100-possession splits in significantly more playing time:

                      Morris vs. Patterson (2014-15)
                      Per 100 Possessions......MP PTS REB AST STL BLK
                      Markieff Morris ......... 2581 24.3 9.8 3.7 2.0 0.8
                      Patrick Patterson ....... 2156 15.5 10.4 3.7 1.4 1.1
                      Source: Basketball-Reference

                      Five players averaged at least 24 points, 9.5 rebounds, 3.5 assists and two steals per 100 possessions last season: DeMarcus Cousins, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Millsap, Russell Westbrook and Morris. Each of the other four was an All-Star.

                      Not including players who were traded midseason, Morris finished with the best net rating of any Suns player. His deficient shooting, coupled with his current off-court warts, make him a less attractive option to some extent, but at only 25, he has that mysterious air of fringe stardom about him. Patterson, 26, isn't viewed in the same way."

                      It's not authoritative, but has some balance. Still, people paint quite different pictures - with all the same colours.
                      Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Aug 26, 2015, 05:58 PM.

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                      • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                        Other than shooting the 3 what does 2pat do better than Scola?
                        Hedge.

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                        • Kawhi Leonard never made an all-star team - just figured that out a few minutes ago.

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                          • This is painful man.

                            Fit matters.

                            Pieces need to fit.

                            Masai himself said the hardest thing to capture in the NBA is chemistry. He has that WITH Patterson.

                            Putting another high usage guy in the lineup because he puts up PPG on high volume shots is such a COLANGELO move.


                            The pieces need to fit.

                            Patterson fits.

                            Morris likely does not because he needs the ball.

                            Patterson does not need the ball.


                            As for Scola possibly starting - yeah - maybe - which means long term Patterson is the better player to have because he is a reserve - he knows his role. Morris is a great sub, mediocre starter. His contract likely infringes on 2016 and 2017 cap space.


                            Painful reading posts by people who throw stats around in one thread and dismiss them in the other. Painful. PAINful. P-A-I-N-F-U-L.

                            Comment


                            • People are entitled to their opinions whether it's painful for someone else or not. Derailing by trashing everyone doesn't really help.

                              Just because you have players that have previously high usage in the lineup doesn't mean they need to continue to have usage like that. If we moved the ball better it wouldn't really be a problem.

                              Yes if we bring in morris and continue with your turn my turn iso ball we will run out of turns very quickly with lowry, dd, jv and mm in the starting 5

                              Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                              • JWash wrote: View Post
                                People are entitled to their opinions whether it's painful for someone else or not. Derailing by trashing everyone doesn't really help.

                                Just because you have players that have previously high usage in the lineup doesn't mean they need to continue to have usage like that. If we moved the ball better it wouldn't really be a problem.

                                Yes if we bring in morris and continue with your turn my turn iso ball we will run out of turns very quickly with lowry, dd, jv and mm in the starting 5

                                Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
                                So the plan is to bring another player in and have him not play to his strengths??????????????????????


                                *facepalm*

                                Raps fans never learn.

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