DeMar DeRozan: PER Over/Under & What if...

[DogeLover1234]

Don't know about game two but at least in game 1 they were apparently trying to get him used to getting the ball so he could practice making quicker decisions. And I thought he was a little quicker off the mark.

He definitely needs the experience. I hope that he learns because he could be huge if he consistantly makes good quick decisions. I hope they dont revert to old habits if they have a slow start.

[golden]

He definitely needs the experience. I hope that he learns because he could be huge if he consistantly makes good quick decisions. I hope they dont revert to old habits if they have a slow start.

This is kind of depressing, though, isn't it? DD's been with Casey for what, 5 years now?

It basically feels like we're building our entire program / style of play / core habits completely from scratch this season. Contrast that with Boston, for example, who is installing a team-oriented style of play and good habits in advance of having the talent to be successful with it.

[Maury]

This is kind of depressing, though, isn't it? DD's been with Casey for what, 5 years now?

It basically feels like we're building our entire program / style of play / core habits completely from scratch this season. Contrast that with Boston, for example, who is installing a team-oriented style of play and good habits in advance of having the talent to be successful with it.

It's definitely kind of frustrating considering they have had a long time to develop a system and have started over quite a few times with the same core.


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[Snooch]

I kind of hope the system doesnt change now.

I want all our pieces other than Demar to get used to playing with a "ball dominate Alpha male scorer" (even though Demar will NEVER I repeat NEVER EVER be even good at being that guy) because it will allow for everyone to easily adapt to playing beside Durant in 2016.

[slaw]

This is kind of depressing, though, isn't it? DD's been with Casey for what, 5 years now?

It basically feels like we're building our entire program / style of play / core habits completely from scratch this season. Contrast that with Boston, for example, who is installing a team-oriented style of play and good habits in advance of having the talent to be successful with it.

I think you have to be careful at this point overstating how much change is actually occurring.

The GM has been here for two years plus and, short term, has largely been exploiting opportunities of convenience (Lou Williams/Bebe for the corpse of John Salmons, Rudy Gay's contract for anyone without Rudy Gay's contract, Bargnani for a bag of balls or a first round pick, whichever) while building a foundation (DLeague, bringing in prospects, draft, etc.) eyeing longer-term goals. Remember, when Ujiri came here he talked about building a tough, defensive-minded team like the old Eastern Conference powers. In his third season, he finally had bullets in the chamber to fire and he has gone in exactly that direction. I don't think the program, style or core idea of the team has changed - just that you're seeing continuing progression from where the roster was three season ago.

Plus, it remains to be seen how much will change on the ground. I don't anticipate the defense being less aggressive overall (that isn't Casey's style) but simply that the tactics against certain offensive sets are being revised and the improved personnel will make a difference cause players do actually matter. That isn't really a sea change. Offensively, they are still going to keep the ball in Lowry's hands a lot cause you kind of want your best player to make plays but I suspect we'll see more motion sets and likely see Derozan's role diminished somewhat. Again, not really a sea change.

[golden]

I think you have to be careful at this point overstating how much change is actually occurring.

The GM has been here for two years plus and, short term, has largely been exploiting opportunities of convenience (Lou Williams/Bebe for the corpse of John Salmons, Rudy Gay's contract for anyone without Rudy Gay's contract, Bargnani for a bag of balls or a first round pick, whichever) while building a foundation (DLeague, bringing in prospects, draft, etc.) eyeing longer-term goals. Remember, when Ujiri came here he talked about building a tough, defensive-minded team like the old Eastern Conference powers. In his third season, he finally had bullets in the chamber to fire and he has gone in exactly that direction. I don't think the program, style or core idea of the team has changed - just that you're seeing continuing progression from where the roster was three season ago.

Plus, it remains to be seen how much will change on the ground. I don't anticipate the defense being less aggressive overall (that isn't Casey's style) but simply that the tactics against certain offensive sets are being revised and the improved personnel will make a difference cause players do actually matter. That isn't really a sea change. Offensively, they are still going to keep the ball in Lowry's hands a lot cause you kind of want your best player to make plays but I suspect we'll see more motion sets and likely see Derozan's role diminished somewhat. Again, not really a sea change.

I've got no problem with the job Ujiri's done - he's moved a lot of dead-weight contracts and created flexibility and potential upside moving forward. Kudos to MU. My comment was more directed toward it being kind of sad that we would hoping that one of our veteran team leaders, who has been with our program the longest might finally learn this year how to make good decisions with the ball. It's even worse taking into account your suggestion that the program really hasn't changed, nor will be changing much. Given your assertion, what would be your conclusion why DD makes such bad decisions after such a long time with the system: the program sucks, or the player can't grasp the system?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I've got no problem with the job Ujiri's done - he's moved a lot of dead-weight contracts and created flexibility and potential upside moving forward. Kudos to MU. My comment was more directed toward it being kind of sad that we would hoping that one of our veteran team leaders, who has been with our program the longest might finally learn this year how to make good decisions with the ball. It's even worse taking into account your suggestion that the program really hasn't changed, nor will be changing much. Given your assertion, what would be your conclusion why DD makes such bad decisions after such a long time with the system: the program sucks, or the player can't grasp the system?

Maybe coach and player BOTH need to be upgraded?

[SkywalkerAC]

I've got no problem with the job Ujiri's done - he's moved a lot of dead-weight contracts and created flexibility and potential upside moving forward. Kudos to MU. My comment was more directed toward it being kind of sad that we would hoping that one of our veteran team leaders, who has been with our program the longest might finally learn this year how to make good decisions with the ball. It's even worse taking into account your suggestion that the program really hasn't changed, nor will be changing much. Given your assertion, what would be your conclusion why DD makes such bad decisions after such a long time with the system: the program sucks, or the player can't grasp the system?

But again, from Casey's perspective, DeMar probably is doing what is asked, for the most part - ie it has been a pretty 'sticky' system. Probe the defense with use screen action or isolation to drive the lane/get to your spot/draw multiple defenders; if you do draw two defenders make the smart pass or back it out and reset; don't turn the ball over; kick out to the 3-point line; draw fouls.

Now, a large part of the reason Casey has used this system might (have) be(en) the presence of DeMar (and Kyle, and Lou, etc), but these are all things that DD has learned to do quite well. Look at how he closed the season when Kyle was flagging. And that's part of the problem - there has been an overreliance on DeMar during Casey's tenure, out of necessity really, and that has lead to some unseemly offensive sets to say the least.

Hopefully, with new coaching staff and new players, we will see a shift to zippier passing, on the part of Casey AND DeMar. Who'd like to see a Princeton back-cut for once? A little like Vince Carter started to surprise people with his passing ability as his 20s progressed, I think we'll see some dandies from Derozan this season.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But again, from Casey's perspective, DeMar probably is doing what is asked, for the most part - ie it has been a pretty 'sticky' system. Probe the defense with use screen action or isolation to drive the lane/get to your spot/draw multiple defenders; if you do draw two defenders make the smart pass or back it out and reset; don't turn the ball over; kick out to the 3-point line; draw fouls.

Now, a large part of the reason Casey has used this system might (have) be(en) the presence of DeMar (and Kyle, and Lou, etc), but these are all things that DD has learned to do quite well. Look at how he closed the season when Kyle was flagging. And that's part of the problem - there has been an overreliance on DeMar during Casey's tenure, out of necessity really, and that has lead to some unseemly offensive sets to say the least.

Hopefully, with new coaching staff and new players, we will see a shift to zippier passing, on the part of Casey AND DeMar. Who'd like to see a Princeton back-cut for once? A little like Vince Carter started to surprise people with his passing ability as his 20s progressed, I think we'll see some dandies from Derozan this season.

As hard as I've been on DeRozan, I have cut him some slack, since there's no doubt that Casey has utilized an ISO-centric system. DeRozan has definitely not been the only culprit over the past few seasons.

However, the bolded is something I have an issue with. While I admit that I yell at my TV in an effort to make the 4 non-ball-handling players actually move instead of stand around watching (blame definitely falls at the feet of the head coach), DeRozan seems to force his own game far more than the system would seem to entail. He's even gone on record and talked about needing to be 'the guy' and preferring to shoot with hands in his face - those aren't signs that he has the greatest BB-IQ. He also doesn't seem to have great court awareness/vision, which I admit hasn't been aided by DC's lack of movement.

[SkywalkerAC]

As hard as I've been on DeRozan, I have cut him some slack, since there's no doubt that Casey has utilized an ISO-centric system. DeRozan has definitely not been the only culprit over the past few seasons.

However, the bolded is something I have an issue with. While I admit that I yell at my TV in an effort to make the 4 non-ball-handling players actually move instead of stand around watching (blame definitely falls at the feet of the head coach), DeRozan seems to force his own game far more than the system would seem to entail. He's even gone on record and talked about needing to be 'the guy' and preferring to shoot with hands in his face - those aren't signs that he has the greatest BB-IQ. He also doesn't seem to have great court awareness/vision, which I admit hasn't been aided by DC's lack of movement.

Right, and that's where the shift needs to happen. We aren't so dependent on him anymore and can afford to use him a little more as a facilitator and as a(n occasional) 3-point shooter. It won't be an overnight shift, but I tend to think that DeMar is both capable and willing - he's more coachable than we give him credit for, but admittedly one does has to wonder how things will play out in this, a contract season.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Right, and that's where the shift needs to happen. We aren't so dependent on him anymore and can afford to use him a little more as a facilitator and as a(n occasional) 3-point shooter. It won't be an overnight shift, but I tend to think that DeMar is both capable and willing - he's more coachable than we give him credit for, but one has to wonder how things will play out in this, a contract season.

I'm not sure how well the first bold fits with the second bold.

He's been 'the guy' as either the #1 or #1a option for quite a few years, going back to the start of the post-Bosh era when it was him and Bargnani. I have a hard time expecting him to take a backseat, unless it's to a certified star player, which this team doesn't have.

This year's Raptor team is more like last year's Atlanta team or the early 2000's Pistons, where they need solid team play to be successful. However, everything DeRozan says and does would indicate that he sees his role on a star-less team, to be the star. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but I have years worth of observations to make me think otherwise.

[SkywalkerAC]

Yeah, maybe I'd should have said "i guess one does have to wonder..."

[golden]

Right, and that's where the shift needs to happen. We aren't so dependent on him anymore and can afford to use him a little more as a facilitator and as a(n occasional) 3-point shooter. It won't be an overnight shift, but I tend to think that DeMar is both capable and willing - he's more coachable than we give him credit for, but one has to wonder how things will play out in this, a contract season.

Do you think Casey believes that? All the quotes from pre-season are along the lines of "not sure where our offense is going to come from this season....". Once we hit a rough patch, I brace myself for even more DD and Lowry ISO than last year. The seeds of excuses have been planted early (i.e. we traded offense for defense).

[SkywalkerAC]

Do you think Casey believes that? All the quotes from pre-season are along the lines of "not sure where our offense is going to come from this season....". Once we hit a rough patch, I brace myself for even more DD and Lowry ISO than last year. The seeds of excuses have been planted early (i.e. we traded offense for defense).

Yeah, they are still the two 'stars', but then you've got Carroll as the highest paid, 'new' sets (emulating SA?), more looks for JV, Scola on the 2nd unit. I think that may be Casey's way of saying that we'll spread it around a bit more.

[DogeLover1234]

Right, and that's where the shift needs to happen. We aren't so dependent on him anymore and can afford to use him a little more as a facilitator and as a(n occasional) 3-point shooter. It won't be an overnight shift, but I tend to think that DeMar is both capable and willing - he's more coachable than we give him credit for, but admittedly one does has to wonder how things will play out in this, a contract season.

Are you trying to say that he can now develop his passing and shooting more or than he can play as a facilitator/shooter rather than a scorer? Maybe i'm wrong, but ive never seen him as a good facilitator. He tends to over dribble and pass as a last resort. Part of this is for sure on the coach and other players but at the same time I don't think DD helps in "creating" shots. There is a reason opposing teams can make a defensive game plan saying that DD rarely passes and that they can just force contested shots, and get away with it. If he isn't going to be an above average shooter, i think he needs to be a better facilitator.