Hindsight is 20/20

[Nilanka]

That's fair on the playoff point. Definitely a reasonable view.

Going back to Nilanka's post, I guess I've always viewed a treadmill team as something like what BC did in Toronto from 2007 until Bosh left: constantly running as fast possible (i.e. making a dozen moves every year, constant roster turnover, constantly handing out bad contracts to fill out the lineup) without accomplishing much of anything (i.e. getting any better). I look at recent teams out West like Sacramento, Phoenix, Dallas or in the East like MIL, NYK, Nets, WSH all of which have made a lot of moves over the last 5 years and are basically no further ahead than where they started and haven't accomplished much of anything in the interim.

I guess the only other point I'd make is that, for Toronto, Ujiri still has a fairly big lever to pull in terms of hiring a new coach. Rather than re-working an entire roster, which is incredibly complicated and difficult, firing the coach is simple. He has also has some other levers to pull in terms of trades, so he has options. It's when a GM runs out of options that I start to get worried....

Let's agree that there's a wide spectrum of treadmill scenarios, where the current situation is considerably better than anything Colangelo attempted

[KeonClark]

This debate itself is starting to run on a treadmill

[OldSkoolCool]

Let me clarify since I kicked this off.

This season we arent a treadmill team

But we could turn into a treadill team if we retain DD and Casey (see my original post). I think this team is the best it can be with the combination of those two together. DD is limited defensively and is a notorious ball-stopper.....and Casey, is, well see the Everything Casey thread.

If we retain DD we now dont have flexibility until 2018 without trading some of our key role players....and even then our only saving grace is the projected cap jump is huge.

The team as currently constructed and maintaining the status quo is having the best season it could have, because I dont think Lowry is going to get any better than this. Dude is ballin but if he takes another step we are talking HOF superstar PG status...i hope but lets be real.

We also havent done anything in the playoffs yet.

We also have a few teams in the east that are getting better or have taken huge steps back this year.

I want playoff success but I am hoping for a first round exit to force Ujiris hand to change the status quo. The team as currently constructed is not fun to watch and not built for playoff success

[Apollo]

I don't know if I agree. The Raptors have added two really good new prospects and they have a lotto pick plus a late rounder. They have enough new assets to allow them to do all sorts of thing in the offseason. Some of those things could involve DD staying and them still improving as a club. If they were to let DD walk theyre not moving in the right direction. There's no guarantee that there's going to be a nice S&T package awaiting Ujiri in the offseason either. They can't get rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him, let's be clear.

[KeonClark]

Let me clarify since I kicked this off.

This season we arent a treadmill team

But we could turn into a treadill team if we retain DD and Casey (see my original post). I think this team is the best it can be with the combination of those two together. DD is limited defensively and is a notorious ball-stopper.....and Casey, is, well see the Everything Casey thread.

If we retain DD we now dont have flexibility until 2018 without trading some of our key role players....and even then our only saving grace is the projected cap jump is huge.

The team as currently constructed and maintaining the status quo is having the best season it could have, because I dont think Lowry is going to get any better than this. Dude is ballin but if he takes another step we are talking HOF superstar PG status...i hope but lets be real.

We also havent done anything in the playoffs yet.

We also have a few teams in the east that are getting better or have taken huge steps back this year.

I want playoff success but I am hoping for a first round exit to force Ujiris hand to change the status quo. The team as currently constructed is not fun to watch and not built for playoff success

So what if theoretically we beat the Cavs and go to the finals? Wouldn't that be an indication that casey and derozan just might be doing something right? Or you'd still go "bah humbug, we should have been eliminated a month ago, to prove me right"

As far this "aren't fun to watch" I see people frequently gripe out, I say: so? At the end of the day get me to the win. If I want fun I'll take my nephew to a Harlem globetrotter game. The Greek freak and the bucks are pretty fun. The t wolves are fun. The spurs, for like 8 years mid dynasty, were considered boring and all in all bad tv.

[Axel]

Let's agree that there's a wide spectrum of treadmill scenarios, where the current situation is considerably better than anything Colangelo attempted

Perhaps we need to add in some other equipment. If we don't win round 1 we are an "elliptical" team; if we don't make the ECF we are a "stair master" team; no finals appearance and we are a "tread climber" team.

[KeonClark]

Perhaps we need to add in some other equipment. If we don't win round 1 we are an "elliptical" team; if we don't make the ECF we are a "stair master" team; no finals appearance and we are a "tread climber" team.

Hopefully this offseason masai is buying a stairway to heaven

[JWash]

I don't understand why anyone would root for their team to lose in the first round under any circumstance.

It's not like we're tanking for a high pick here. There is literally no benefit to that whatsoever.

[Apollo]

I don't understand why anyone would root for their team to lose in the first round under any circumstance.

I agree. Anyone cheering against their team in the playoffs has lost their way... I don't know if anyone around here really thinks that way though.

[KeonClark]

I don't understand why anyone would root for their team to lose in the first round under any circumstance.

It's not like we're tanking for a high pick here. There is literally no benefit to that whatsoever.

To "fire casey".

I'm trying to think of a good metaphor..if your kid is failing math, you'd rather have him flunk the final exam and take the whole course over rather than hoping he studies his ass off, starts to "get it", aces the final and moves to the next course the following year.

Just terrible logic. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Apollo]

That's a pretty ass backward, weak reasoning. The more successful the Raptors are, the more attractive a destination they are to head coaches. Teams do well and still fire their coaches and so Casey isn't safe even if they advance. If Ujiri's long term target is seemingly available I doubt he passes up the chance because Casey had a good season as bench boss.

People should chill on the coach already. If you have so much faith in Ujiri then prove it and see what happens while supporting your team.

[slaw]

I want playoff success but I am hoping for a first round exit to force Ujiris hand to change the status quo. The team as currently constructed is not fun to watch and not built for playoff success

I don't understand this. If the team were to get to the ECF, for example, then it clearly is built for playoff success, so then you would be wrong about the second point. Why would anyone hope for failure? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

As for being aesthetically pleasing, that's not really the criteria by which you build any organization or business. If the team has success it really, honestly doesn't matter how they look doing it.

[Apollo]

I don't know how anyone who was a fan over the span of 2002 to 2012 could ever wish for their team to stink. It's like they don't know how good they have it.

[DanH]

I don't understand this. If the team were to get to the ECF, for example, then it clearly is built for playoff success, so then you would be wrong about the second point. Why would anyone hope for failure? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

As for being aesthetically pleasing, that's not really the criteria by which you build any organization or business. If the team has success it really, honestly doesn't matter how they look doing it.

There's an argument to be made that one year of playoff success could be a fluke and you might get locked into a mediocre core long term. Not one I buy into, but it could be made.

What confuses me is the thought that a playoff loss would force anyone's hand to do anything. First, there are any number of changes that could be made, for all we know it would be Lowry and JV outgoing and building around DeRozan with Casey as coach. Second, and more importantly, we had about as disappointing a playoff outcome as is possible last season and Casey and the core three players are still here - the theory has clearly been pretty thoroughly debunked.

I'd be perfectly happy with Casey and these players having great success in the playoffs - the whole point of moving on from Casey or some players would be to achieve great success in the playoffs (based on the premise that they are holding us back from that). If that success comes, I don't much care what changes are made or not made to achieve that.

[JWash]

Also don't get how the Raptors aren't fun to watch? I have a blast watching the majority of the games, especially when we're winning (which is damn near 70% of the time). Not every team is going to play a quick passing style launching up triples like the Warriors. The Warriors can play like that because they have the personnel for it in arguably the two greatest 3PT marksmen in NBA history.

We have players who like to terrorize the rim, get in the paint and make some incredibly athletic and acrobatic plays around the basket. Whether that's Lowry muscling off feeble, frail opposing point guards with his booty power or DeRozan blowing by and finishing with a circus shot or JV with his elite touch around the basket. And when it comes to threes, we may not take a lot but we sure as hell make a lot of them with guys like Ross and PPat coming off the bench to knock them down (5th in the league in 3PT%).

Then defensively, the team is obviously inconsistent, but when we're on it's exciting to watch. Whether it's a steal leading to a flashy dunk for Ross or DeRozan, Biyombo blocking someone into the 5th row or JV just being a tree in the middle.

Don't get what's not fun about that. Especially given how shit this team has been for YEARS. I'm not from Toronto (from elsewhere in Canada, not in Ontario) and I used to get so much shit for being a Raptors fan, "Why are you a fan of the Craptors? What are you doing with your life?" Well the team is actually good and exciting now. Obviously I don't like everything, but there is plenty to enjoy rather than hoping the team flames out yet again and we can have a depressing summer.