The Official 2016 Raptors Summer League Discussion

[golden]

So who were better backup centers in your opinion?

Depends on what you're valuing, e.g., offense, defense or both. Certainly a guy like Enes Kanter blows away Biz on offense to compensate for his crap defense - he's basically the anti-Biz.

Other backup centers who had very good seasons last year....

Clint Capela, Aron Baynes, Jordan Hill, Al Jefferson, Gorgui Dieng & Kosta Koufos.

[KHD]

Stats aren't the only way to measure impact, that's why we watch.

Assuming he is 23, he came into the league as a raw 18 yr old and showed a lot of growth toward the end of the season. If he had stayed or if Orlando has good development, I think he could be a deandre type center. That is, one of the best in the league at the two most important aspects of his position: rebs and rim protection. With improved hands he can be a rim runner and off. Reb. That's the perfect center for a small ball, guard oriented league.
Hard to say if this happens. He had a good situation here and as the season progressed he started to improve. If he stayed and got minutes, I think it would happen. Don't know how it will be in Orlando.
He was projected to get 18m and he did and other teams would have paid the same. So he's doing something right in the eyes of professionals.
I think we will miss him a lot. You need guys like biz in the playoffs. I don't think we would have won those 2 games without him. Game 6 was bs calls that kept him out. That changed the game and we looked mediocre without him. Nba wanted lebron in the finals. Biz was the only thing in the way. Refs took him out.

says who?

If your model is Golden State, they certainly don't agree. Bogut was a great passer. Draymond, their actual small-ball 5, does everything.

[Deino]

Your right about more than stats but Biz didn't rebound or defend the rim better than JV enough to offset his complete lack of offence.

JV's defence is underrated while Biyombo's was overrated. Biyombo had higher % of games with zero blocks than JV. Biyombo was simply too inconsistent yet his regular duds were forgotten as soon as he had a good game with finger wag. He was a very good backup but he still isn't a great starters option. We have a great starting option, so no, we won't really miss Biyombo that much.

Since stats aren't the only way to measure impact,then we should also look at real stuff in the game that are not there in stat sheet(rather than resorting to blocks per game %),like how many shots were altered/changed direction,how many plays went in a different way because they saw a dominant rim protector in the paint(the only time I saw Lebron back up when he saw Biz waiting for him in the paint),and to claim the team will not be affected by his departure is unfounded as only time will tell whether that is true or not.
It would be interesting to see how any of our current centers react/perform in pnr situation forcing him to go out to defend outside shooters that's when slower bigs get exploited failing to sprint back to make a defensive stand/block at the rim (which was Biz's strength).
I really like JV but if our "system" relies on mainly backcourt scoring then what's the point of talking about JV's offensive skills when he's mostly used to set picks for the guards,and since the Raps offensive game is a shooting thing that results in many misses/potential rebounds then shouldn't there be an investment in a tough physical rebounder big(not necessarily Biz but someone with similar strength)

[lewro]

Your right about more than stats but Biz didn't rebound or defend the rim better than JV enough to offset his complete lack of offence.

JV's defence is underrated while Biyombo's was overrated. Biyombo had higher % of games with zero blocks than JV. Biyombo was simply too inconsistent yet his regular duds were forgotten as soon as he had a good game with finger wag. He was a very good backup but he still isn't a great starters option. We have a great starting option, so no, we won't really miss Biyombo that much.

Not gonna knock jv but biz has avg roughly 1 more blk per 36 for his career. Guy who uses verticality will get blocks but not intimidate. Biz makes guy think twice to even attempt it.
Aren't too many players in the league that can guard lebron on the perimeter. Probably a short list in league history. Can't overrate that. You have to have that guy to compete against lebron in this generation.
We kept losing in the 1st rd and I think an attitude like biz really helped us.
To me, it's not a question of whether we need him, it's just we couldn't afford him. That means he has value.

[KHD]

Since stats aren't the only way to measure impact,then we should also look at real stuff in the game that are not there in stat sheet(rather than resorting to blocks per game %),like how many shots were altered/changed direction,how many plays went in a different way because they saw a dominant rim protector in the paint(the only time I saw Lebron back up when he saw Biz waiting for him in the paint),and to claim the team will not be affected by his departure is unfounded as only time will tell whether that is true or not.
It would be interesting to see how any of our current centers react/perform in pnr situation forcing him to go out to defend outside shooters that's when slower bigs get exploited failing to sprint back to make a defensive stand/block at the rim (which was Biz's strength).
I really like JV but if our "system" relies on mainly backcourt scoring then what's the point of talking about JV's offensive skills when he's mostly used to set picks for the guards,and since the Raps offensive game is a shooting thing that results in many misses/potential rebounds then shouldn't there be an investment in a tough physical rebounder big(not necessarily Biz but someone with similar strength)

biyombo was just as bad at defending the perimeter shooter as almost every center in the NBA.

And if you want to talk about offensive rebounding, valanciunas is better at it than bismack.

you guys are doing exactly what Axel was talking about. Forgetting the fact that Bismack has as many, if not more, duds as he had good games.

Aren't too many players in the league that can guard lebron on the perimeter.

yeah no shit.

One or two posessions in 1 game doesn't put Bismack on the list, though.

[lewro]

biyombo was just as bad at defending the perimeter shooter as almost every center in the NBA.

And if you want to talk about offensive rebounding, valanciunas is better at it than bismack.

you guys are doing exactly what Axel was talking about. Forgetting the fact that Bismack has as many, if not more, duds as he had good games.


yeah no shit.

One or two posessions in 1 game doesn't put Bismack on the list, though.

If he only impacted a couple possessions then there would have been a mozgov reaction to his contract rather than broadcasters predicting he would get 18m in the middle of the game.

[Deino]

biyombo was just as bad at defending the perimeter shooter as almost every center in the NBA.

And if you want to talk about offensive rebounding, valanciunas is better at it than bismack.

you guys are doing exactly what Axel was talking about. Forgetting the fact that Bismack has as many, if not more, duds as he had good games.


yeah no shit.

One or two posessions in 1 game doesn't put Bismack on the list, though.

You're twisting what I said about Biz's defense,i said if Biz had to go all the way to perimeter to defend then quickly recover (ball movement/drive by) and sprint back to block the ball at the rim that's where his strength is.

[Bonus Jonas]

He had 0-4 rebounds in 20% of his games. Less than 10 rebounds in 72% of his games.

He had 0-9 points in nearly 80% of his games.

He had 0 steals in 80% of his games.

He had 0 blocks in 20% of his games.

He was a classic boom or bust player. When he was good, he was excellent. When he wasn't, he was a complete non-factor.

Unfair statement. He's not boom or bust, he just wasn't getting the same amount of minutes consistently, based on the JV injuries.

As a starter, he averaged over 12 rebounds a game. Only twice did he have 0-4 rebounds in those 32 games (that's 6%). In games in which he played at least 25 minutes, he averaged 11.9 rebounds a game. Only once did he have 0-4 rebounds in those 35 games (that's under 3%).

In games where he played 24 or less minutes, he had 0-4 rebounds in 20 of the 67 games (just under 30%).

If given the minutes it's clear he rebounded at an elite rate. I didn't look up the numbers for blocks but I'm sure they're the same as rebounds.

I wouldn't have wanted him back at the price he got but let's call a spade a spade.

[Bonus Jonas]

Your right about more than stats but Biz didn't rebound or defend the rim better than JV enough to offset his complete lack of offence.

JV's defence is underrated while Biyombo's was overrated. Biyombo had higher % of games with zero blocks than JV. Biyombo was simply too inconsistent yet his regular duds were forgotten as soon as he had a good game with finger wag. He was a very good backup but he still isn't a great starters option. We have a great starting option, so no, we won't really miss Biyombo that much.

Why is this even relevant?

Yeah Biyombo had more games in which he had zero blocks because he had more games in which he played less minutes.

Biyombo played 20 or less minutes 49 times this season. Valanciunas played 20 or less minutes 9 times.

Expecting Biyombo to have as many games with blocks as Valanciunas is asinine.

[Bonus Jonas]

In the 46 games this season where JV played 25 or more minutes, he had 0 blocks 9 times. That's just under 20%.

In the 35 games this season when Biz played 25 or more minutes, he had 0 blocks 5 times. That's 14%.

[3inthekeon]

Why is this even relevant?

Yeah Biyombo had more games in which he had zero blocks because he had more games in which he played less minutes.

Biyombo played 20 or less minutes 49 times this season. Valanciunas played 20 or less minutes 9 times.

Expecting Biyombo to have as many games with blocks as Valanciunas is asinine.

But it fits the narrative. Use spurious stats to make Bismack look as bad as possible.

Biz played good ball for the Raptors. He was one of the best backup centers in the NBA.

This was acknowledged by GM's who figured he was worth 15-17 million in free agency and got 18. Most likely an overpay for a guy whose entire offensive skillset is hard screens, the occasional finish on a roll, rebounds and putbacks. But he was an excellent defender - pretty well every metric that captures defense like RPM and DBPM says so, even though some people see what they want to see.

[KHD]

But it fits the narrative. Use spurious stats to make Bismack look as bad as possible.

Biz played good ball for the Raptors. He was one of the best backup centers in the NBA.

This was acknowledged by GM's who figured he was worth 15-17 million in free agency and got 18. Most likely an overpay for a guy whose entire offensive skillset is hard screens, the occasional finish on a roll, rebounds and putbacks. But he was an excellent defender - pretty well every metric that captures defense like RPM and DBPM says so, even though some people see what they want to see.

not sure anyone is saying he isn't a good defender. For me, i'm just saying he isn't irreplacable and if we distribute minutes smartly and get something from our 2 prospects at that spot, we should be fine.

The last point cuts both ways. Lots of people here have created this vision of biyombo as the second coming of ben wallace, and it's just not even close to reality.

[3inthekeon]

not sure anyone is saying he isn't a good defender. For me, i'm just saying he isn't irreplacable and if we distribute minutes smartly and get something from our 2 prospects at that spot, we should be fine.

The last point cuts both ways. Lots of people here have created this vision of biyombo as the second coming of ben wallace, and it's just not even close to reality.

I agree, as long as we stay relatively healthy, we'll be fine, especially if Sullinger finally is able to keep his weight in check.

And yeah, the people who were wanting to get rid of JV and keep Biz have been just as biased in seeing them only through their personal narrow spectrum.

[Axel]

But it fits the narrative. Use spurious stats to make Bismack look as bad as possible.

Biz played good ball for the Raptors. He was one of the best backup centers in the NBA.

This was acknowledged by GM's who figured he was worth 15-17 million in free agency and got 18. Most likely an overpay for a guy whose entire offensive skillset is hard screens, the occasional finish on a roll, rebounds and putbacks. But he was an excellent defender - pretty well every metric that captures defense like RPM and DBPM says so, even though some people see what they want to see.

What narrative? It all fits the overall point, Biyombo was a high quality backup but ultimately is still just a backup. He is often overrated by members of the fan base who seem to think he was this unreplacable player. He's easy to replace because we have a better player already.

[lewro]

What narrative? It all fits the overall point, Biyombo was a high quality backup but ultimately is still just a backup. He is often overrated by members of the fan base who seem to think he was this unreplacable player. He's easy to replace because we have a better player already.

Hes not irreplaceable. And yes, he has his flaws but I wouldn't use his defence as a first point of criticism. Hypothetically, bebe can somehow turn a corner and demonstrate a respectable amount of rim protection with a great deal more to offer offensively. And there are other backup players like this that dont come with bizs' contract or offensive limitations. I think his attitude though, can't be understated and is difficult to replace. He had a huge impact on our team and a big reason why we finally broke through. There are a lot of guys who have been gifted and groomed their whole lives. for example, I can see Ross dating a cougar but not fighting one.