Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Everything Jared Sullinger

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Quirk wrote: View Post
    That's probably a widely held view, but I would take JV over George. IMO Lowry is far and away the best of the three. Also, George has been in decline for the past two years, he's young enough to turn it around, but a red flag to me in any case.
    PG13 in decline? He's right back to where he was before the injury. Numbers-wise, last season was arguably the best of his career and even more impressive because he had no help.

    Almost singlehandedly took out the Raps in the 1st round if Vogel didn't rest him for a few minutes at the wrong time. That would have completely changed the direction of the Raptors franchise.

    Comment


    • golden wrote: View Post
      PG13 in decline? He's right back to where he was before the injury. Numbers-wise, last season was arguably the best of his career and even more impressive because he had no help.

      Almost singlehandedly took out the Raps in the 1st round if Vogel didn't rest him for a few minutes at the wrong time. That would have completely changed the direction of the Raptors franchise.
      I nearly spat out my tea when I read that. We're a Raptors-centric forum, but let's not get carried away. PG13 is a top 10 player in the league, and approaches Kawhi-like effectiveness on the defensive end. He's not on the decline. If anyone is on or approaching the decline, its Lowry. He'll be 31 next summer, was never a great/elite athlete, and while its only July, he looks far heftier now than at any point in the past season.
      Last edited by Sinbad; Fri Jul 29, 2016, 10:41 AM.

      Comment


      • Quirk wrote: View Post
        That's probably a widely held view, but I would take JV over George. IMO Lowry is far and away the best of the three. Also, George has been in decline for the past two years, he's young enough to turn it around, but a red flag to me in any case.
        PG just averaged 27/8/4/2/1 on 46/42% shooting against us in the PO. u cant be serious. HE is far greater than JV on both ends of the floor and he is better than KL aswell
        Abbas wrote:

        First of all i was my own source

        Comment


        • Was just comparing Sully and Diaw by the stats and I think Sully can be our third playmaker on the court with Deebo and K Low. Especially when teams double team Deebo and K Low off the PnR. You'll have Sully playing 4 on 3. With his high ball IQ he should be able to make a play for him or one of his teammates.
          @Chr1st1anL

          Comment


          • Sinbad wrote: View Post
            I nearly spat out my tea when I read that. We're a Raptors-centric forum, but let's not get carried away. PG13 is a top 10 player in the league, and approaches Kawhi-like effectiveness on the defensive end. He's not on the decline. If anyone is on or approaching the decline, its Lowry. He'll be 31 next summer, was never a great/elite athlete, and while its only July, he looks far heftier now than at any point in the past season.
            I look at it this way small forward and point guard are the deepest positions in the nba with George being fourth behind LeBron, Durant and Leonard at worst and can win the matchup against these fellows on certain nights. JV is emerging in a weak position in the league but has yet to win a all-star selection.

            Comment


            • I'm one of the biggest JV fans around, and it's ludicrous anyone would suggest JV is near his level yet. JV can produce, for sure, and is one of the better players on the team (2nd only to Lowry), but George is very much on Lowry's level, if slightly behind him IMO.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

              Comment


              • lol JV isn't close to george, what is happening in this thread?

                Comment


                • KHD wrote: View Post
                  lol JV isn't close to george, what is happening in this thread?
                  I have no idea. I love JV and Lowry, but putting either of them on par with Paul George is ridiculous. This is prisoner of the moment sentiment running wild.

                  Comment


                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    I'm one of the biggest JV fans around, and it's ludicrous anyone would suggest JV is near his level yet. JV can produce, for sure, and is one of the better players on the team (2nd only to Lowry), but George is very much on Lowry's level, if slightly behind him IMO.
                    What? The playoffs are an important benchmark because you get to see what how much talent a player really has. Talent really gets exposed.

                    First off, Lowry's defense is nowhere near George's level (which can be DPOY level). George completely shutdown a second tier all-star like DD by himself for an entire series, and then carried his team on offense without anything remotely resembling secondary scoring threat or even overall team depth. Meanwhile, Lowry was busy getting the yips.

                    Lowry is very much a product of the Raps system which maximizes his strengths on offense (i.e. score first, getting fouled) while allowing him to rest on defense (e.g. CoJo) in the regular season.

                    Comment


                    • Look at it this way: if you could choose one of Kyle, Jonas, or PG on your team, you better be picking Paul George every single time.

                      Comment


                      • Quirk wrote: View Post
                        That's probably a widely held view, but I would take JV over George. IMO Lowry is far and away the best of the three. Also, George has been in decline for the past two years, he's young enough to turn it around, but a red flag to me in any case.
                        PG is far better than anyone we have on our roster. One of the best two way players in the league along with Kawhi, Butler and Klay.

                        I love JV, but if you had the option to trade him for PG, you do it in a heartbeat, hell I'd even trade Lowry for PG.

                        Comment


                        • golden wrote: View Post
                          What? The playoffs are an important benchmark because you get to see what how much talent a player really has. Talent really gets exposed.

                          First off, Lowry's defense is nowhere near George's level (which can be DPOY level). George completely shutdown a second tier all-star like DD by himself for an entire series, and then carried his team on offense without anything remotely resembling secondary scoring threat or even overall team depth. Meanwhile, Lowry was busy getting the yips.

                          Lowry is very much a product of the Raps system which maximizes his strengths on offense (i.e. score first, getting fouled) while allowing him to rest on defense (e.g. CoJo) in the regular season.
                          Lowry's shot was trash because he was hurt, and don't let him tell you otherwise. And don't let missed shots tell the entire story.

                          The Raptors pretty much played the Pacers even while Lowry was on the court in that series, in spite of Lowry's rough shooting and DeRozan's disastrous play. When he sat, they lost by 20 points per 100 possessions. The 76ers had an average differential of -10 points per 100 possessions. So without Lowry on the floor in those playoffs, the Raptors were quite literally twice as bad as the 76ers.

                          Lowry's individual defence is nowhere near George's level, but his intelligent team defence and ability to break up plays is incredible. Lowry actually graded out slightly better in DRPM than George did last year (which is especially impressive when you consider that DRPM is skewed to bigger players - SF's average far better defensive numbers than PG's do). Meanwhile, Lowry's offensive contribution is certainly greater than George's (George actually compares pretty closely to DeMar in terms of offensive production/efficiency/usage).

                          Lowry getting rest because of CoJo? Where are you getting that idea? He played close to the most minutes in the entire league because he had to be out there NOT getting rest whether CoJo was out there or not. In the 10-15 MPG where they shared the floor, yeah, Lowry took the lesser guard, but for the 25 MPG where Lowry was out there without CoJo he was guarding the point of attack. Meanwhile, no, Lowry does not depend on free throws like DeRozan does to be productive - he had a higher eFG% than both DeMar and George while having a free throw rate closer to George's than DeMar's.

                          Lowry's a product of the Raptors' system? Only in the sense that his productivity is leaps and bounds above George's. For example, by WS/48, this season was a near .200 season for Lowry, while George has only ever peaked around .175 and this year was down closer to .150. And Lowry's last season in HOU before coming to the Raptors he posted a .156 WS/48, very comparable to George's typical numbers. Is he really a product of the Raps' system or is the system simply smartly taking advantage of the incredible player that he is?
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

                          Comment


                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Lowry's shot was trash because he was hurt, and don't let him tell you otherwise. And don't let missed shots tell the entire story.

                            The Raptors pretty much played the Pacers even while Lowry was on the court in that series, in spite of Lowry's rough shooting and DeRozan's disastrous play. When he sat, they lost by 20 points per 100 possessions. The 76ers had an average differential of -10 points per 100 possessions. So without Lowry on the floor in those playoffs, the Raptors were quite literally twice as bad as the 76ers.

                            Lowry's individual defence is nowhere near George's level, but his intelligent team defence and ability to break up plays is incredible. Lowry actually graded out slightly better in DRPM than George did last year (which is especially impressive when you consider that DRPM is skewed to bigger players - SF's average far better defensive numbers than PG's do). Meanwhile, Lowry's offensive contribution is certainly greater than George's (George actually compares pretty closely to DeMar in terms of offensive production/efficiency/usage).

                            Lowry getting rest because of CoJo? Where are you getting that idea? He played close to the most minutes in the entire league because he had to be out there NOT getting rest whether CoJo was out there or not. In the 10-15 MPG where they shared the floor, yeah, Lowry took the lesser guard, but for the 25 MPG where Lowry was out there without CoJo he was guarding the point of attack. Meanwhile, no, Lowry does not depend on free throws like DeRozan does to be productive - he had a higher eFG% than both DeMar and George while having a free throw rate closer to George's than DeMar's.

                            Lowry's a product of the Raptors' system? Only in the sense that his productivity is leaps and bounds above George's. For example, by WS/48, this season was a near .200 season for Lowry, while George has only ever peaked around .175 and this year was down closer to .150. And Lowry's last season in HOU before coming to the Raptors he posted a .156 WS/48, very comparable to George's typical numbers. Is he really a product of the Raps' system or is the system simply smartly taking advantage of the incredible player that he is?
                            None of those arguments are particularly convincing that Lowry is a better player than PG. If anything, it supports the theory/notion that the Raptors have built a better team around Lowry. Better supporting cast + a system that takes advantages of Lowry's specific strengths at the expense of other players (e.g. JV) and/or a system we continue to run even when Lowry sits (e.g. CoJo or DD trying to take on the Lowry score-first primary ball handler role) and minimizes Lowry's weaknesses (e.g. saving energy for offense when CoJo/Lowry + bench unit rolls).

                            I'd agree that Lowry is probably the better regular season scorer, even though I could never envision Lowry being offensively versatile enough to reach 30% USG like George, without becoming extremely inefficient. But when you factor in defense, George grades out far superior to Lowry as a 2-way player with the ability to guard multiple positions at a time when those abilities are valued extremely high in the NBA.

                            And the whole Lowry injury thing. If Lowry was truly injured and hiding it, why would he be taking extra shooting practice until the wee hours of the night? Shouldn't he be resting that "injury". The action speaks louder than words, and this alone tends to agree with the problems being more mental than physical.
                            Last edited by golden; Fri Jul 29, 2016, 04:21 PM.

                            Comment


                            • golden wrote: View Post
                              None of those arguments are particularly convincing that Lowry is a better player than PG. If anything, it supports the theory/notion that the Raptors have built a better team around Lowry. Better supporting cast + a system that takes advantages of Lowry's specific strengths at the expense of other players (e.g. JV) and/or a system we continue to run even when Lowry sits (e.g. CoJo or DD trying to take on the Lowry score-first primary ball handler role) and minimizes Lowry's weaknesses (e.g. saving energy for offense when CoJo/Lowry + bench unit rolls).

                              I'd agree that Lowry is probably the better regular season scorer, even though I could never envision Lowry being offensively versatile enough to reach 30% USG like George, without becoming extremely inefficient. But when you factor in defense, George grades out far superior to Lowry as a 2-way player with the ability to guard multiple positions at a time when those abilities are valued extremely high in the NBA.
                              When DeMar went down for a month and a half last year, Lowry carried a 29% usage and a 54% TS%. George over his past two healthy seasons has carried a 29% average usage and a 55% TS%. Shocking difference. And even as a secondary ball handler, as you put it, Lowry carries a very heavy usage. He's not exactly being hidden behind a low usage. 26% is very, very high for a PG. Nevermind the massive minutes he has to carry (even more than George carried except in 4 fewer games).

                              Now, George certainly has more ability to carry that heavy usage over long periods of time - it's simply not Lowry's game to carry high usage and he got beat up quick. But lower usage players can still be more valuable offensively. Especially when they are more efficient, as Lowry is (yes, even when removing the free throws).

                              Yes, it is impossible to filter out the situation each player is in. And I'm not insulting George here - he's a tremendous player, top 10 talent in all likelihood. But so is Lowry. Of course the Raptors have built a better team around Lowry. We won 56 games and Indy sure didn't. But that doesn't mean Lowry is a lesser player.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

                              Comment


                              • I wouldn't put JV on George's level, but I don't think it's a big gap.

                                People talk about playoffs being the benchmark, well JV was the only player other than George dominating in that 1st round series. There were many minutes where all 3 guys being discussed here were on the floor together and JV was easily the most impactful of them and both teams acknowledged that during the series. And in that series he and George were the only ones playing at that level, and you could argue JV's impact could've been greater as he was still underutilized.

                                Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X