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  • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    2pat was already playing the majority of the minutes at that position for the last 3 monthes. Closing out games and everything I don't think him coming into the game 5 minutes earlier changes much at all but, hey that's just me.
    Ah, so you DO want the team to make the best possible lineup decisions but against literally all the evidence just don't think it would make any difference. OK.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      2pat was already playing the majority of the minutes at that position for the last 3 monthes. Closing out games and everything I don't think him coming into the game 5 minutes earlier changes much at all but, hey that's just me.
      But if you want Patterson out there for as many minutes as possible, you need to maximize two things: His rest minutes, and his playing minutes.

      Having him on the bench to start both halves serves neither purpose. Those aren't rest minutes or playing minutes for him, so it means that either he has to play huge consecutive stretches(which he did frequently during the playoffs, and he struggled towards the end of those stretches), or he can't play big minutes.
      twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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      • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
        Nothing short of getting a superstar is going to be enough to beat LBJ. Starting 2pat over Scola wouldn't of made a difference. If you guys think it would of than you must of not watched the finals. It's LBJ's world were just living in it.

        Keep discounting the record all you want. Fact is Masai respects the record and rewarded his coach for it. It's funny you give people a stat and all of sudden they think thier more knowledgeable than people that do this for a living.
        This is so fatalistic it's kind of weird. Glad you can enjoy the team while simultaneously believing it's not possible for them to end the year with a W, but having resigned yourself to this fate and the idea that any decision being made by the paid staff is the right decision, it begs the question of why you bother participating in a fan forum. Is it just to log on and say "Yay!" when nice things happen and argue with anyone who has a criticism? I don't know what else you would do with this que sera sera approach, unless you don't really believe it...

        *Instantly regrets being sucked into the vortex.*
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • S.R. wrote: View Post
          This is so fatalistic it's kind of weird. Glad you can enjoy the team while simultaneously believing it's not possible for them to end the year with a W, but having resigned yourself to this fate and the idea that any decision being made by the paid staff is the right decision, it begs the question of why you bother participating in a fan forum. Is it just to log on and say "Yay!" when nice things happen and argue with anyone who has a criticism? I don't know what else you would do with this que sera sera approach, unless you don't really believe it...

          *Instantly regrets being sucked into the vortex.*
          What's wrong with me cheering for the team knowing that they won't win? Nothing wrong with losing to a better team. That's what the Cavs are.
          @Chr1st1anL

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          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
            What's wrong with me cheering for the team knowing that they won't win? Nothing wrong with losing to a better team. That's what the Cavs are.
            That wasn't the question posed to you.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • DanH wrote: View Post
              That wasn't the question posed to you.
              when has that ever mattered to him?

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              • I participate on this forum because I love the Raptors. Not that many raptor fans in Ottawa. Is that answer good enough for you Dan and KHD?
                @Chr1st1anL

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                • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                  I participate on this forum because I love the Raptors. Not that many raptor fans in Ottawa. Is that answer good enough for you Dan and KHD?
                  No offence is meant here. I'm just curious, after the question was asked. A very large portion of the discussion that takes place on here is based around what could be done better, what choices to make re: rotation, strategy, player usage, etc. I find it hard to imagine enjoying such an environment when espousing the stance you take so often, that whatever was done must have been the right thing, regardless of any critical thought applied by others.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • Axel wrote: View Post
                    The team in general needed Patterson more. Scola starting lead to many early deficits that the bench unit (often with Lowry) then had to overcome. Without digging that early hole, maybe we have fewer close games and a few more blowouts that would have allow for more minutes to our prospects and maybe it allows for Scola and the bench to develop some chemistry.
                    Bingo, the bold is the key. 2Pat is the type of guy that makes everyone better by virtue of how he plays the game and that he can space the floor at the 4. And Lowry, DD, and JV need far less help in that regard than Cojo, Ross and Biz. And the fact remains that the bench units were good to great with one of Lowry or Derozan included, but suffered if neither was on the floor. Point being, with or without Patterson, those units would still need help, especially offensively.

                    Barolt wrote: View Post
                    The counter argument there is that the bench needed Patterson more because they were accustomed to him being part of the bench unit. Had that not been the case, the bench players would've had time to adjust and form a cohesive unit without Patterson.
                    Well, thats really just a fantasy argument. We have no way of telling what effect that could have had, because ultimately both units needed Patterson in order to be at or near their best, which says more about Scola than it does about Patterson. Also, if you can envision a way in which the bench units could have actually been effective playing less with Patterson then I'd like to hear it. Cojo needs a 4 like Patterson more than Lowry. And Cojo needs a Lowry or Demar more than Lowry or Demar need a Patterson. Remove Lowry, Demar or Patterson from playing with the bench and those units would be god awful. Cory can't carry them, neither could Ross or Powell or JJ or Biz or Bebe or whomever. So, for the bulk of the season Casey elected to have Patterson spend most of his time with the bench units that needed him more, while allowing Kyle, Demar and JV to "carry" Scola, because surely, Cory and Ross and Biz could not have "carried him".

                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    Also, wouldn't that have continued to be true in the playoffs?
                    Was it not true? The big difference wasn't whether or not Patterson started, it was more about how many minutes Scola played, because as I remember it most of his minutes came with starter heavy units. And ultimately, he didn't play that much at all anyways.

                    Listen folks, I do believe that Patterson is the better player of the two and is the better option for the starting unit. But a coach has to consider the full 48 minutes and given our roster, needs to consider balance throughout the lineup as well. Ultimately, the bench units needed one of our 2 all stars to really be effective, and one of those guys working in tandem with Patterson at the 4 for bench units was probably the better option.

                    Maybe had Patterson started we would have had more leads when the subs came in or maybe we would have had fewer deficits to overcome. But it's equally plausible that those leads would have been coughed up by a stagnant bench if Patterson had been a starter. Then we would be wondering if we'd be better off having Patterson come off the bench as opposed to starting.

                    But again, I'll stress two points that are almost impossible to argue against. The bench needed one of Lowry or Derozan to be effective, and all units were better if Scola wasn't a part of them.

                    So for me, whether or not Patterson started is irrelevent, because everybody was better with him on the floor and everybody was worse with Scola, which I really believe has more to do with Scola than it does with Patterson.

                    And I also believe that had Patterson been cloned and the pair had consumed all 48 minutes at the 4 and Scola had not seen the floor at all, we would have still lost to CLE and it would have still taken 7 games to dispatch MIA and IND. Lowry and Demar were the reasons it took 7 games to win those series, not Patterson or Scola.

                    So anyway, I guess it's exciting to have Sullinger replacing Scola.

                    Now whether or not Sullinger is the better fit for the starting or bench unit, thats another question lol. And all I think about in regards to that is this question: would having Sullinger come off the bench reduce the bench units dependence on having one of Lowry and Demar on the floor with them? Perhaps there are other factors to consider, like whether Powell or Ross take a jump this season, or whether Poeltl can contribute meaningfully at some point in the season?

                    So whats your preference right now for the starting 4? Patterson or Sullinger and why? Time to move on from the Scola discussion IMO.

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                    • Bench unit was bad without Patterson? Are we sure about that?

                      Because there is very little sample of the bench playing without him. All year we only had 29 minutes where Joseph, Ross and Biyombo were on the floor with Scola. And they did do great in that time (+12 net rating). Not surprising, because Scola fits SO much better with the bench unit than the starters. I don't think the bench needed Patterson. Patterson excels when beside players who need the ball in their hands - the bench was full of similar players, like Ross and Joseph (who is a defender who works best when he's not the primary ball handler) and Biyombo (who definitely can't be relied on to score). Scola however needs the ball, and you could see how poorly he fit the role that was forced on him by playing with the starters. Give him the ball and a chance to initiate offence with the bench as a secondary after whichever of DD/KL are babysitting at the time and he'd have done much better throughout the year (and probably not run out of gas so quickly).
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                        Bingo, the bold is the key. 2Pat is the type of guy that makes everyone better by virtue of how he plays the game and that he can space the floor at the 4. And Lowry, DD, and JV need far less help in that regard than Cojo, Ross and Biz. And the fact remains that the bench units were good to great with one of Lowry or Derozan included, but suffered if neither was on the floor. Point being, with or without Patterson, those units would still need help, especially offensively.



                        Well, thats really just a fantasy argument. We have no way of telling what effect that could have had, because ultimately both units needed Patterson in order to be at or near their best, which says more about Scola than it does about Patterson. Also, if you can envision a way in which the bench units could have actually been effective playing less with Patterson then I'd like to hear it. Cojo needs a 4 like Patterson more than Lowry. And Cojo needs a Lowry or Demar more than Lowry or Demar need a Patterson. Remove Lowry, Demar or Patterson from playing with the bench and those units would be god awful. Cory can't carry them, neither could Ross or Powell or JJ or Biz or Bebe or whomever. So, for the bulk of the season Casey elected to have Patterson spend most of his time with the bench units that needed him more, while allowing Kyle, Demar and JV to "carry" Scola, because surely, Cory and Ross and Biz could not have "carried him".



                        Was it not true? The big difference wasn't whether or not Patterson started, it was more about how many minutes Scola played, because as I remember it most of his minutes came with starter heavy units. And ultimately, he didn't play that much at all anyways.

                        Listen folks, I do believe that Patterson is the better player of the two and is the better option for the starting unit. But a coach has to consider the full 48 minutes and given our roster, needs to consider balance throughout the lineup as well. Ultimately, the bench units needed one of our 2 all stars to really be effective, and one of those guys working in tandem with Patterson at the 4 for bench units was probably the better option.

                        Maybe had Patterson started we would have had more leads when the subs came in or maybe we would have had fewer deficits to overcome. But it's equally plausible that those leads would have been coughed up by a stagnant bench if Patterson had been a starter. Then we would be wondering if we'd be better off having Patterson come off the bench as opposed to starting.

                        But again, I'll stress two points that are almost impossible to argue against. The bench needed one of Lowry or Derozan to be effective, and all units were better if Scola wasn't a part of them.

                        So for me, whether or not Patterson started is irrelevent, because everybody was better with him on the floor and everybody was worse with Scola, which I really believe has more to do with Scola than it does with Patterson.

                        And I also believe that had Patterson been cloned and the pair had consumed all 48 minutes at the 4 and Scola had not seen the floor at all, we would have still lost to CLE and it would have still taken 7 games to dispatch MIA and IND. Lowry and Demar were the reasons it took 7 games to win those series, not Patterson or Scola.

                        So anyway, I guess it's exciting to have Sullinger replacing Scola.

                        Now whether or not Sullinger is the better fit for the starting or bench unit, thats another question lol. And all I think about in regards to that is this question: would having Sullinger come off the bench reduce the bench units dependence on having one of Lowry and Demar on the floor with them? Perhaps there are other factors to consider, like whether Powell or Ross take a jump this season, or whether Poeltl can contribute meaningfully at some point in the season?

                        So whats your preference right now for the starting 4? Patterson or Sullinger and why? Time to move on from the Scola discussion IMO.
                        Very well put. I'd rather Sully starting. I think his passing skills will relieve pressure from both Deebo and K-Low from being play makers. Team won't be able to trap thier pick n rolls anymore. Well they will be able to but, at thier own risk.
                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • I mentioned Jared Sullinger earlier, who may be filling a similar role in the Raptors’ starting five that you once held. What can the team and its fans expect from him?

                          He’s an all-around kind of player. He’s going to rebound for you, a great scorer. He was a big contributor to our Boston team and I can see him fitting into that Raptors team perfectly. He can do it all, especially at his size, man, it’s amazing what he can do. There were games for us where he was getting 15 and 15 for us, or 20 and 20, just balling. Man, it was amazin

                          Amir Johnson

                          http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...rs-goon-squad/
                          @Chr1st1anL

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                          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                            I mentioned Jared Sullinger earlier, who may be filling a similar role in the Raptors’ starting five that you once held. What can the team and its fans expect from him?

                            He’s an all-around kind of player. He’s going to rebound for you, a great scorer. He was a big contributor to our Boston team and I can see him fitting into that Raptors team perfectly. He can do it all, especially at his size, man, it’s amazing what he can do. There were games for us where he was getting 15 and 15 for us, or 20 and 20, just balling. Man, it was amazin

                            Amir Johnson

                            http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...rs-goon-squad/
                            Sully is like a much more skilled Chuck Hayes. Same body type, strength which allows him to rebound as well he does and be a solid defender in the post but again where he will definitely show his flaws will be perimeter defence. Again I'm happy as hell with him as a replacement for Scola for basically the same type of money (cap effect kept in mind) but he is not going to fill the role of Amir (not that you're implying that), if anyone does it will be Siakam if he gets some time to show what he can do on the pro squad.

                            I think Sully may eventually find himself playing some minutes at C with Siakam at C when the bench mob comes in n when Casey wants to go small ball.

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                            • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
                              Sully is like a much more skilled Chuck Hayes. Same body type, strength which allows him to rebound as well he does and be a solid defender in the post but again where he will definitely show his flaws will be perimeter defence. Again I'm happy as hell with him as a replacement for Scola for basically the same type of money (cap effect kept in mind) but he is not going to fill the role of Amir (not that you're implying that), if anyone does it will be Siakam if he gets some time to show what he can do on the pro squad.

                              I think Sully may eventually find himself playing some minutes at C with Siakam at C when the bench mob comes in n when Casey wants to go small ball.
                              0 skills multiplied by any number is still 0. Lol. Let's say his skills are (0+1)*a lot. Haha.

                              I think the comparison with chuck stops at body type though. Chuck's effort got him a giant overpay contract. I agree with your saikam points but unless he is amazing I expect him to be with the 905 almost all year.

                              I really think this years big man rotation is val, sully, pat, bebe. And unless bebe fucks it all up, or injuries hit us, the two rookies won't see the floor.

                              Sent from my HUAWEI TAG-TL00 using Tapatalk

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                              • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                                0 skills multiplied by any number is still 0. Lol. Let's say his skills are (0+1)*a lot. Haha.

                                I think the comparison with chuck stops at body type though. Chuck's effort got him a giant overpay contract. I agree with your saikam points but unless he is amazing I expect him to be with the 905 almost all year.

                                I really think this years big man rotation is val, sully, pat, bebe. And unless bebe fucks it all up, or injuries hit us, the two rookies won't see the floor.

                                Sent from my HUAWEI TAG-TL00 using Tapatalk
                                Ohhh Bebe absolutely will lol he's garbage.

                                Bebe is a nice person and everything but so far he does not look like a NBA player at all. I'll be surprised if he's even in the league in a couple of years. I'm willing to bet Poeltl takes his spot in the rotation roughly 3/4 into the season. Bebe just has terrible court awareness and leaves his feet way too often. I also believe that Siakam will actually see some playing time as well. I think this will be like Powell and Wright all over again. Which guy will be the "Powell" of this year, I'm not sure but I'm guessing Poeltl because the C position is razor thin, JV's health really isn't reliable and Jakob does some things very similar to JV. But I confidently bet against your prediction that they will not see the floor, nearing year end they will find their way in the mix. I think Bruno has mislead people to believe that rookies won't see any PT when in reality it's just that Bruno is that bad.

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