'The Raptors currently have the best offense in NBA History' - CBSSports.com

[KHD]

Poor Casey. People always pointing out he ain't no Pops. Then when he uses PPat like Pops has used Ginobili......

yeah, well, the spurs had a defence that was at a minimum better than league-average, for 19 straight years (and are still doing so, statistically, even with Tim gone). meanwhile we're starting a guy who has no clue on defence, much as i like the hustle.

[DanH]

Poor Casey. People always pointing out he ain't no Pops. Then when he uses PPat like Pops has used Ginobili......

It's actually quite the opposite. Pops didn't start Ginobili because he didn't fit as a primary ball handler and was better used off the bench, keeping one of him and Parker on the floor all the time and avoiding an overlap of their skill sets too often. Patterson fits impeccably with the starters.

[DanH]

I don't think it's so much about wanting to start Scola as it is about wanting to play 2Pat in the second unit in the first half of games particularly. Again not as cut and dry as many want to make it seem. We're not the only team that doesn't start its best lineup.

I understand the logic. I disagree with it, is the thing. Especially when it is going to have to change eventually, because in the playoffs you can't rely on the opposition to trot out bench lineups for very long, so it's much harder to dig out of the hole your intentionally ineffective starters dig you. If it has to change, it should change now, not later, so you have a chance to find out what other bench units work.

[Lupe]

I understand the logic. I disagree with it, is the thing. Especially when it is going to have to change eventually, because in the playoffs you can't rely on the opposition to trot out bench lineups for very long, so it's much harder to dig out of the hole your intentionally ineffective starters dig you. If it has to change, it should change now, not later, so you have a chance to find out what other bench units work.

The only reason it changed in the playoffs imo is because of how little Lowry and DeRozan were giving us offensively in the starting unit in the Pacers series and DeRozan to a lesser extent in the Heat series as well. Notice he went right back to the bench in the Cavs series, starting only once in 6 games.

Here's what we know:

- Casey knows that Lowry-DD-Carroll-2Pat-JV is our best lineup.
- Casey does not choose to start that lineup despite knowing that
- Casey uses that lineup occasionally to start the second half and to close games, again reaffirming the first point

So why doesn't he start them? I don't know the exact reason, but there must be a good one other than just assuming that he's incompetent, when he clearly isn't. Again I'll use the examples of Golden State's death lineup and also the Spurs with Ginobili. There isn't really any glaringly obvious reason not to start those lineups, especially given that they have four other regular starters in them anyway, but the teams don't. Has to be some kind of method to that. We can't just assume that Kerr and Popovich know what they're doing and Casey doesn't. In fact it's even more peculiar for GSW and SAS given that Iguodala (maybe not anymore, but probably the last 2 years) and Ginobili are/were better players than 2pat.

[DanH]

The only reason it changed in the playoffs imo is because of how little Lowry and DeRozan were giving us offensively in the starting unit in the Pacers series and DeRozan to a lesser extent in the Heat series as well. Notice he went right back to the bench in the Cavs series, starting only once in 6 games.

Here's what we know:

- Casey knows that Lowry-DD-Carroll-2Pat-JV is our best lineup.
- Casey does not choose to start that lineup despite knowing that
- Casey uses that lineup occasionally to start the second half and to close games, again reaffirming the first point

So why doesn't he start them? I don't know the exact reason, but there must be a good one other than just assuming that he's incompetent, when he clearly isn't. Again I'll use the examples of Golden State's death lineup and also the Spurs with Ginobili. There isn't really any glaringly obvious reason not to start those lineups, especially given that they have four other regular starters in them anyway, but the teams don't. Has to be some kind of method to that. We can't just assume that Kerr and Popovich know what they're doing and Casey doesn't. In fact it's even more peculiar for GSW and SAS given that Iguodala (maybe not anymore, but probably the last 2 years) and Ginobili are/were better players than 2pat.

What? I presented perfectly logical reasons for not starting those players above. I'm not assuming they know what they are doing. If they were doing something so illogical as benching Patterson, I'd be calling them out too (if I watched their teams closely enough to care and observe said lack of logic). I haven't said anything about assuming they know what they are doing. I'm speaking specifically to the decision Casey is making, and the exact decision he made that bit the team in the ass last spring.

You don't really believe that DD and Lowry were the reason Scola got benched, right? As soon as Vogel took his own Scola out of his lineup, the Raptors starters got smashed the next game, and Casey's hand was forced.

[DanH]

And Patterson went back to the bench because Casey refused to start him all year, meaning we had zero functional non-Patterson bench units, and the bench was a disaster when Pat started in the playoffs.

[Majesiu]

I've started to wonder if there are any non basketball factors. Maybe hidden Patterson clause that he become King of Canada after starting more than 40 games? Or the bet that Casey stop staring manically staring and drawing on his board during pre-game?

Link about death lineup - seems that they don't want to overextend Iguodala (averaging lowest MPG in career) and plan to rest him (but only did that 1 time to date). PPat only plays 4 minutes more per game than him.

I agree maximizing our strength is good strategy, but even if we always play PPat and KLOE together (and they are only players in both lineups), assuming PPat plays 29 minutes, Kyle 36 for rest of the season, that leaves us nearly 20 minutes a game to create working lineups without PPat, and 12 minutes without Kyle. And we don't have any answer there - either lineups are net minus or small sampled. In playoffs it's not a problem with increased minutes, but we still have 3/4 of regular season left.

[Lupe]

I've started to wonder if there are any non basketball factors. Maybe hidden Patterson clause that he become King of Canada after starting more than 40 games? Or the bet that Casey stop staring manically staring and drawing on his board during pre-game?

Link about death lineup - seems that they don't want to overextend Iguodala (averaging lowest MPG in career) and plan to rest him (but only did that 1 time to date). PPat only plays 4 minutes more per game than him.

I agree maximizing our strength is good strategy, but even if we always play PPat and KLOE together (and they are only players in both lineups), assuming PPat plays 29 minutes, Kyle 36 for rest of the season, that leaves us nearly 20 minutes a game to create working lineups without PPat, and 12 minutes without Kyle. And we don't have any answer there - either lineups are net minus or small sampled. In playoffs it's not a problem with increased minutes, but we still have 3/4 of regular season left.

Well I think what DanH and a few others are suggesting isn't to play KLow and PPat together all the time. It's to play JV and PPat together all the time. They play roughly 28mpg each so that's 20mpg where neither of them are on the floor. Which could present a serious problem on both sides of the court for those 20 minutes especially offensively. Maybe it'll be easier to deal with that when Sullinger comes back though. But all of a sudden you're really weakening the Lowry+Bench lineup and/or forcing DeRozan to carry the offense for significant stretches of the game. Which he can do, but isn't optimal.

Interesting link about the death lineup. Kind of strange though given that Iguodala the last two years has basically played the same minutes as 2Pat.

[S.R.]

I understand the logic. I disagree with it, is the thing. Especially when it is going to have to change eventually, because in the playoffs you can't rely on the opposition to trot out bench lineups for very long, so it's much harder to dig out of the hole your intentionally ineffective starters dig you. If it has to change, it should change now, not later, so you have a chance to find out what other bench units work.

Patterson had zero starts all season last year then started 9 of 20 games in the playoffs and his mpg bumped up from 25 to nearly 30. It's one thing to tighten the rotation for the playoffs, it's a lot more unusual to change your starting lineup for the playoffs.

Patterson has all of 11 regular season starts his entire time with the Raptors.

Offer your best guess - does Sully coming back definitely stick Patterson to the bench or does Sully come off the bench? Bebe/Sully is a fairly complimentary pairing.

[DanH]

Patterson had zero starts all season last year then started 9 of 20 games in the playoffs and his mpg bumped up from 25 to nearly 30. It's one thing to tighten the rotation for the playoffs, it's a lot more unusual to change your starting lineup for the playoffs.

Patterson has all of 11 regular season starts his entire time with the Raptors.

Offer your best guess - does Sully coming back definitely stick Patterson to the bench or does Sully come off the bench? Bebe/Sully is a fairly complimentary pairing.

I think plan A is to have Sully start. That's the only reason I can think of that they are trying against all odds to keep Siakam in the starting lineup.

My concern is this: if Sully struggles, or gets hurt again, or just suffers a setback and never returns before the playoffs, you're stuck with no usable bench lineups after Pat inevitably has to start. While if you start him now, give him 20 games to see if you can find some non-Pat bench units, then if Sully ends up coming back and looking like he should start, you already know Pat works great with the bench unit. It seems like a no-downside move, which is why the lack of it (for two seasons now) is so strange.

[DanH]

Well I think what DanH and a few others are suggesting isn't to play KLow and PPat together all the time. It's to play JV and PPat together all the time. They play roughly 28mpg each so that's 20mpg where neither of them are on the floor. Which could present a serious problem on both sides of the court for those 20 minutes especially offensively. Maybe it'll be easier to deal with that when Sullinger comes back though. But all of a sudden you're really weakening the Lowry+Bench lineup and/or forcing DeRozan to carry the offense for significant stretches of the game. Which he can do, but isn't optimal.

Interesting link about the death lineup. Kind of strange though given that Iguodala the last two years has basically played the same minutes as 2Pat.

I see the argument that the Lowry-bench unit could suffer. But consider that the current starting unit, even with the recent quick hooks and not starting second halves, has 261 minutes played on the year, to the Lowry-bench unit's 130. So as an aggregate, the bench would have to suffer twice as much as the starters improve for the team to break even on the trade off, and there's no evidence to suggest the backups would suffer that much (or at all, really, as the driving forces for success of those lineups are the all stars making hay against inferior opposition).

[Mess]

Since this has recently turned into the (most current) PP referendum, I shall leave this here.

FEATURE: I asked 14 in Raptors organization what Patrick Patterson’s most essential skill is. It got complicated. https://t.co/AQY2ImyeRZ

— (((Eric Koreen))) (@ekoreen) December 20, 2016

[Lupe]

One could also make the argument that currently the Lowry+Bench lineups and the Lowry-DD-Carroll-PPat-JV lineups are thriving when they're on the floor, the two best lineups currently in the NBA. Inserting 2Pat into the starting 5 is going to affect when and how both of those lineups play and could potentially hurt them.

[3inthekeon]

One could also make the argument that currently the Lowry+Bench lineups and the Lowry-DD-Carroll-PPat-JV lineups are thriving when they're on the floor, the two best lineups currently in the NBA. Inserting 2Pat into the starting 5 is going to affect when and how both of those lineups play and could potentially hurt them.

How is he going to hurt the second lineup? That would and should be the starting lineup.

[Lupe]

How is he going to hurt the second lineup? That would and should be the starting lineup.

I didn't say he would hurt the lineup.

I said that throwing 2Pat into the starting lineup would change "when and how" those two lineups are on the court and who they're playing against which could potentially cause them to not be as effective.