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Thread: GAME #30: Toronto Raptors 95 - Portland Trailblazers 91

  1. #241
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Didn't watch the game. How did Bebe play?

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    @Chr1st1anL

  2. #242
    Super Moderator Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    He's getting worse though?
    Are we really going to take the observations of a single person as fact now?

    Here's what I've seen from Vonleh. In in 2+ years he's been moved around between PF and C a lot but hasn't been given enough time to really develop at either position. Last year Portland used him mostly as a PF (97%) while this year is much closer to 50-50 split (slightly favouring PF while his Charlotte year was slightly more C).

    His TS% is the same last year and despite playing more C he's shooting more 3 pointers (3P attempt rate from 16 to 24%) and getting to the FT line more (18% to 29%). His offensive game has dramatically shifted in how he's being used. 25% of his shots are now 3PAs and he's playing more C than last year. I think the expectations for some are premature. He's learning 2 different positions playing with different players in the front court - a lot for any player to digest. He's young, he's talented and he may still prove that Portland won that deal. I think Portland is doing him a bit of disservice by not letting him learn one position first then the other but that's the reality of his situation on a team that is fighting for home court advantage in the west.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

  3. #243
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Are we really going to take the observations of a single person as fact now?

    Here's what I've seen from Vonleh. In in 2+ years he's been moved around between PF and C a lot but hasn't been given enough time to really develop at either position. Last year Portland used him mostly as a PF (97%) while this year is much closer to 50-50 split (slightly favouring PF while his Charlotte year was slightly more C).

    His TS% is the same last year and despite playing more C he's shooting more 3 pointers (3P attempt rate from 16 to 24%) and getting to the FT line more (18% to 29%). His offensive game has dramatically shifted in how he's being used. 25% of his shots are now 3PAs and he's playing more C than last year. I think the expectations for some are premature. He's learning 2 different positions playing with different players in the front court - a lot for any player to digest. He's young, he's talented and he may still prove that Portland won that deal. I think Portland is doing him a bit of disservice by not letting him learn one position first then the other but that's the reality of his situation on a team that is fighting for home court advantage in the west.
    Portland is fighting for home court in the West? They're 13-20 and in tenth place in the Conference. The 4th seed is 22-11.

    And it's not so much my observation of the situation - his numbers are largely down across the board and he's playing less frequently than he was last year despite playing on a much worse team... it kind of flies directly in the face of the last point you were trying to make. If that's not getting worse than I'm not sure what is.
    Last edited by Fully; Tue Dec 27th, 2016 at 12:32 PM.

  4. #244
    Super Moderator Axel's Avatar
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    Default GAME #30 TORONTO RAPTORS vs PORTLAND TRAILBLAZERS 26/12/16 10:00 ET SN1

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Portland is fighting for home court in the West? They're 13-20 and in tenth place in the Conference. The 4th seed is 22-11.
    Whoops. I was on last year when I checked their standings.

    In which case they should really let him learn one position over the other right now.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

  5. #245
    Raptors Republic All-Star
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    Thx for all the comments re: vonleh, especially from "slaw". Wasn't expecting so much response. I see some potential in him. I think he might benefit to get 30mins in the dleague for awhile.

  6. #246
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    Jv isn't really that much better than plumlee overall. He is way better than him at certain things though, rebounding and post and pick and roll scoring being the main ones
    Post #219 from Scraptor. It's all about how the team is constructed, and how the players are used. If JV was on Portland, they would be better. If Plummer was on the Raptors, they would be significantly worse

  7. #247
    Raptors Republic Veteran iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    You're a little crazy... I don't know if this is a totally fair comparison.

    Let's break it down a little more.

    Plumlee gets 58% more frontcourt touches, 3 times as many elbow touches, and 53% more passes received.

    The Blazers make a conscious effort to run the ball through Plumlee out of the high post. Before he came to the Blazers, on Brooklyn, Plumlee's assist % was 7.4% over two years (and has jumped to 23.8% this year). JV as a skinny rookie was 5.0% and has fallen to 4.3%.

    Yes Plumlee has better court vision, but that tripling in his assist rate is the product of a conscious effort to use him.

    And you can't take into account a progression in Plumlee's passing over his career without acknowledging the same progression in JV's rebounding. JV went from 14.9% TRB% to 20.2% this year, which is significantly better than Plumlee's 14.5%. Of the 43 players with 200 rebounds this season, Jonas is 8th and Plumlee is 27th in TRB%.

    Finishing in the pick and roll, Jonas is 80th percentile as the roll man, Plumlee is 28th.
    Post-ups, Jonas is 80th percentile, Plumlee is 8th percentile.

    They're both pretty bad in terms of DRPM, but the difference is negligible.

    Jonas is a full two years younger... Plumlee had the benefit of four seasons at Duke.

    I know there's a lot of discontent over Jonas these days but I really think it's more about situation and the build of our team than anything else. He's a better player than Plumlee.
    when we're talking plumlees assist rate, its not just the product of 'a conscious effort to use him'. its because he can ACTUALLY do it. the only big in the league thats averaging higher assists per game than plumlee is draymond green. to say its just a byproduct of portlands system is selling the man short.

    if we're talking specifically about post-ups, then yeah JV is better. sure. but plumlee is definitely way better OVERALL offensively (mostly from actually being able to be in the flow of the offense, rather than stifling post-ups and the eventual dump back out of the post due to JV's complete lack of versatility and awareness), while not losing much in defense.

    i'm not saying JV should be zinging the ball around since this team obviously doesn't care about assists. but actually being apart of the offense like the way plumlee melds with mccollum and lillard is heavenly. as opposed to the raptors who are defined as having one of the easts best back courts...oh and theres JV on the team too.

    in REAL +/-, plumlee is 16th of all centers at a positive 1.03 (nogueira is 4th in the league!).

    JV is 49th at a negative 0.95.

    in offense RPM, mason plumlee is actually 6th best center in the whole league right now (with karl anthony towns, gasol, lopez, speights and horford ahead of him). do you know whos right below plumlee at 7th place? our very own lucas noguiera!

    meanwhile, offensively, JV is down the ranks at #21 (with a negative 0.82). kelly fucking olynyk is ahead of JV at 20. just for hilaritys sake, biyombo is DEAD LAST.

    when JV's offense isn't firing 100%, hes a complete liability on the floor. plumlee is not and can still do a whole lot of other things to help his team win (well, besides shoot from any distance beyond the rim. oh and free throws!).

    hell, even when JV's offense isn't going, who cares? somehow the raptors have got the best offense in league history and thats DESPITE JV being terrible for the past several weeks/months whatever its been. what does that say about his usefulness even on that end of the floor?

    and how the hell is plumlee even slighty averaging more blocks than JV this year? plumlee is shorter and has a terrible wingspan.

    plumlee has shifted, in relatively just a few years, from a "lets just make the guy dunk" big man to a more contemporary and USEFUL big. JV has not.

    the future of traditional bigs is a scary one. players like JV, greg monroe and enes kanter were all top 10 draft picks (keep in mind plumlee was just a 22nd pick). 2 of them are now bench players barely getting minutes. while JV's minutes this year have gone slightly up, i don't know how much longer he will actually last because he's become a purely situational player now, not a guy you can actually build around. i'm pretty sure that was what everyone was hoping for just a few years ago, no?

    anyway i still like JV. both him and plumlee clearly have a lot of faults. but to say JV is better than plumlee (especially in todays NBA) is a bit cloudy to me.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Tue Dec 27th, 2016 at 01:37 PM.

  8. #248
    Raptors Republic Veteran iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Post #219 from Scraptor. It's all about how the team is constructed, and how the players are used. If JV was on Portland, they would be better. If Plummer was on the Raptors, they would be significantly worse
    no they wouldnt. portland moves around the court a LOT. JV does not move. good luck fitting him there.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Tue Dec 27th, 2016 at 01:28 PM.

  9. #249
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer rocwell's Avatar
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    Carrie Fisher has died.

    Piss off 2016.
    "We were one of four teams left. We can be proud of that, but not satisfied" - D. Casey

  10. #250
    Raptors Republic Veteran iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote rocwell wrote: View Post
    Carrie Fisher has died.

    Piss off 2016.
    same with richard adams. watership down continues to be one of my favourite books of all time

  11. #251
    Super Moderator Axel's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    same with richard adams. watership down continues to be one of my favourite books of all time
    Love that book.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

  12. #252
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    no they wouldnt. portland moves around the court a LOT. JV does not move. good luck fitting him there.
    If JV was asked to move anywhere other than the top of the key to set screens 3 or 4 times a possession, I am sure he would be happy to. As it is he is asked to live under the basket (except when he is setting screens) so that the guards can threaten to pass to him, giving themselves just a half step to get a shot off. The way he is so wide open so often suggests that opposing teams recognize passes aren't going to get to him. This is reflected quite well with how often he is not double teamed at the same time DeMar has been getting smothered by 2-3 defenders, leading to turnovers the last 5-6 games. It is no mistake that JV was a focal point early in the season, and DeMar was tearing up the league. DD was getting much more opens shots because JV could not be ignored. Just my opinion, and maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

  13. #253
    Raptors Republic Superstar Scraptor's Avatar
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    My point about usage wasn't to sell Plumlee short, iblastoff. It was to show that no one would have guessed Plumlee was capable of that kind of passing until he had the opportunity. The same goes for what JV might be capable of. We won't ever really see it while the Casey/Kyle/DeMar triumvirate is in place.

    I understand where you're coming from but the stats don't change that JV is little more than a garbageman here while Plumlee is an important cog in the Blazers offense. That context is essential for evaluating both players.

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  15. #254
    Raptors Republic Veteran yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    Patterson hasn't played since the middle of the 2nd. Is he injured ?


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    I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

  16. #255
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    Quote yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    Patterson hasn't played since the middle of the 2nd. Is he injured ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yep.

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