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Thread: GAME #31: Toronto Raptors 111 - Golden State Warriors 121

  1. #681
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    JV is a somewhat better version of Greg Monroe, who's been on the trade block for some time now.
    Was thinking this but reading it makes it real.

  2. #682
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    Quote lewro wrote: View Post
    Was thinking this but reading it makes it real.
    JV, Monroe, Kanter and Vucevic are all kind of in the same group of center. Similar aged centers, skilled offensively but defensive liabilities in the modern game. JV is the best in that group (maybe a hair better than Kanter) but it's telling that the other three are all sort of being used as 6th men spark-plug type scorers.

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    Raptors Republic Starter slamdunk23's Avatar
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    JV, Monroe, Kanter and Vucevic are all kind of in the same group of center. Similar aged centers, skilled offensively but defensive liabilities in the modern game. JV is the best in that group (maybe a hair better than Kanter) but it's telling that the other three are all sort of being used as 6th men spark-plug type scorers.
    I'd say Vuc is better than JV at this moment. He has a much more complete offensive game and can actually make shots from the mid range consistently.

  4. #684
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    JV is a somewhat better version of Greg Monroe, who's been on the trade block for some time now.
    It should be interesting what the Magic get for Vuc. He's pretty comparable to JV. Even though he is more agile than JV.

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    Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Thu Dec 29th, 2016 at 06:09 PM.
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  5. #685
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    JV, Monroe, Kanter and Vucevic are all kind of in the same group of center. Similar aged centers, skilled offensively but defensive liabilities in the modern game. JV is the best in that group (maybe a hair better than Kanter) but it's telling that the other three are all sort of being used as 6th men spark-plug type scorers.
    I'd like to see what JV's man to man defence could look like if he didn't have to help compensate for a defensive sieve in Demar. When healthy JV has played fine man to man defence. Demar can't so constantly needs help d. JV can also be a beast on the boards in addition to some efficient offence. Kanter might be a decent comparison but he plays behind Adams who is better than both.

  6. #686
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    Quote slamdunk23 wrote: View Post
    I'd say Vuc is better than JV at this moment. He has a much more complete offensive game and can actually make shots from the mid range consistently.
    Better offensively for sure

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Whats this injury that JV has? A couple of you have mention it. What is he playing through?

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  8. #688
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    Highly debatable whether he deserved those 1st team all defence selections. Especially not the ones later in his career like the 1st team selection he had no business getting in 2010.

    It's hard to measure objectively with statistics but for example his defensive box-score plus minus was negative or near zero almost every single year of his career with the exception of one (1999-2000)
    So a debate between you and all of the coaches in the NBA judging him at that time (except the Lakers coach) 9 times? Interesting. I'm gonna go with the 29 coaches, 9 times.

    What is not open for debate is how ludicrous it is to even compare Kobe's D to Demar's D. It is not enough to say 'Kobe was better but...' I'm paraphrasing I think. One is a bad defender at his position and can't play good man to man d. The other was considered to be the best defender at his position in the league 9 times, by opposing coaches. And the 2nd best at his position some other years.

    If Demar could be considered the 15th best at his position I would be extremely happy. SI consider he is in the bottom 20%. So what's that, 6th worst?

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    Quote big boi wrote: View Post
    So a debate between you and all of the coaches in the NBA judging him at that time (except the Lakers coach) 9 times? Interesting. I'm gonna go with the 29 coaches, 9 times.

    What is not open for debate is how ludicrous it is to even compare Kobe's D to Demar's D. It is not enough to say 'Kobe was better but...' I'm paraphrasing I think. One is a bad defender at his position and can't play good man to man d. The other was considered to be the best defender at his position in the league 9 times, by opposing coaches. And the 2nd best at his position some other years.

    If Demar could be considered the 15th best at his position I would be extremely happy. SI consider he is in the bottom 20%. So what's that, 6th worst?
    All defensive team is voted by the media not by coaches.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    The Warriors didn't miss a whole lot last night. JV grabbed a third of all available defensive rebounds, well above his average rate. He only grabbed 10% of available offensive boards, you'd like more like 15%, but not exactly a terrible rebounding performance.
    JV grabs about 28.4% of available defensive rebounds. in this game he grabbed about 33% of them but that still only totals to 3 defensive rebounds last night. how does that even make sense? so that means there was only a total of 9 defensive rebounds to get? i don't fully understand this stat when looking at the numbers.

    this year JV is averaging 20'ish % in grabbing available offensive boards. so only grabbing half of that is pretty bad.

  11. #691
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    All defensive team is voted by the media not by coaches.
    it is now. Starting in the 2013-14 season I believe

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  13. #692
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    Quote big boi wrote: View Post
    I'd like to see what JV's man to man defence could look like if he didn't have to help compensate for a defensive sieve in Demar. When healthy JV has played fine man to man defence. Demar can't so constantly needs help d. JV can also be a beast on the boards in addition to some efficient offence. Kanter might be a decent comparison but he plays behind Adams who is better than both.
    Man to man defence isn't very important at center. Teams aren't running tons of post-ups or isos for their bigs. It's help D, pick and roll D and rim protection that are the most important and JV isn't particularly good at any of those.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    Man to man defence isn't very important at center. Teams aren't running tons of post-ups or isos for their bigs. It's help D, pick and roll D and rim protection that are the most important and JV isn't particularly good at any of those.
    i think i remember reading somewhere that JV is one of the worst at pick and roll defense.

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    Quote big boi wrote: View Post
    So a debate between you and all of the coaches in the NBA judging him at that time (except the Lakers coach) 9 times? Interesting. I'm gonna go with the 29 coaches, 9 times.

    What is not open for debate is how ludicrous it is to even compare Kobe's D to Demar's D. It is not enough to say 'Kobe was better but...' I'm paraphrasing I think. One is a bad defender at his position and can't play good man to man d. The other was considered to be the best defender at his position in the league 9 times, by opposing coaches. And the 2nd best at his position some other years.

    If Demar could be considered the 15th best at his position I would be extremely happy. SI consider he is in the bottom 20%. So what's that, 6th worst?
    Wait a sec I didn't compare Kobe's D to DeMar's (well actually I did but not in the sense you mean like saying they're similar in quality). I literally said, "He [Kobe] was a good defender though, better than DeMar for sure that's not debatable." I only compared them offensively.

    What I said was that I'm not sure Kobe's defensive play merited 9 all-NBA first team defensive selections. And there is a debate to b had there because the numbers sure as heck don't support him getting selected that many times, neither really does his play on the court. Yes he could play lockdown defense in spurts but he wasn't a high impact defender at all. The actually top tier wing defenders
    like Tony Allen, Kawhi, Ron Artest all grade out much better than Kobe in DBPM. And Kobe was never particularly ranked highly in defensive RAPM among his peers either.
    Last edited by Lupe; Thu Dec 29th, 2016 at 06:42 PM.

  17. #695
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    JV grabs about 28.4% of available defensive rebounds. in this game he grabbed about 33% of them but that still only totals to 3 defensive rebounds last night. how does that even make sense? so that means there was only a total of 9 defensive rebounds to get? i don't fully understand this stat when looking at the numbers.

    this year JV is averaging 20'ish % in grabbing available offensive boards. so only grabbing half of that is pretty bad.
    This actually sounds about right. 9 available to get when JV was on the floor. Given GS was shooting something absurd like 70% that doesn't really seem unreasonable.

  18. #696
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Whats this injury that JV has? A couple of you have mention it. What is he playing through?

    Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
    It was sarcasm.

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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    Wait a sec I didn't compare Kobe's D to DeMar's (well actually I did but not in the sense you mean like saying they're similar in quality). I literally said, "He [Kobe] was a good defender though, better than DeMar for sure that's not debatable." I only compared them offensively.

    What I said was that I'm not sure Kobe's defensive play merited 9 all-NBA first team defensive selections. And there is a debate to b had there because the numbers sure as heck don't support him getting selected that many times, neither really does his play on the court. Yes he could play lockdown defense in spurts but he wasn't a high impact defender at all. The actually top tier wing defenders
    like Tony Allen, Kawhi, Ron Artest all grade out much better than Kobe in DBPM. And Kobe was never particularly ranked highly in defensive RAPM among his peers either.
    You cannot compare Kobe and Demar defensively. There is no point of comparison. You were comparing the two and talked defence. You conceded that Kobe was better. Okay. Well I would prefer for someone to place a gold nugget in my hand rather than a nugget of poo. That would be better. And offensively you're comparing a legend who did it for years. How does Demar's offensive stats from last year stack up? His most recent full year?

  20. #698
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote Lupe wrote: View Post
    JV, Monroe, Kanter and Vucevic are all kind of in the same group of center. Similar aged centers, skilled offensively but defensive liabilities in the modern game. JV is the best in that group (maybe a hair better than Kanter) but it's telling that the other three are all sort of being used as 6th men spark-plug type scorers.
    Thing is, these types still have value in the modern NBA, just not the core foundation pieces they were thought of even a few years ago,
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

  21. #699
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote lewro wrote: View Post
    It was sarcasm.
    Oh alright. I thought you guys were still using the whole ankle sprain thing from a month ago.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Oh alright. I thought you guys were still using the whole ankle sprain thing from a month ago.

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    It's all fun and games, but JV needs to figure this shit out. I told y'all that something wasn't right with him at the Rio. Body language wasn't right. He looks different in Raptors uniform, but um.. I don't really see any in-game improvement. Maybe it's coming. We'll see. But he got to figure this shit out. I think boxing training will help him. If we can't keep him, we need to make sure his value stays as high as possible until offseason(or trade deadline, although I think Masai will stay put again.)
    "We were one of four teams left. We can be proud of that, but not satisfied" - D. Casey

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