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Thread: Everything (2016-2017) Regular Season Game Threads

  1. #15921
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Yes, I watched the game and Butler was guarding Derozan most of the game. You're actually trying to make it look like he wasn't but that's BS. He came back earlier than Demar in the 4th and guarded Lowry (which I thought Casey should've adjusted to and brought Demar back in a little earlier than usual). You could also see the momentum changing. Who knew that a 6-8 guy just as quick as Lowry could affect him.....

    Butler was 10/25 fg 42 points 18/20 ft. Of course he made some really clutch shots (the biggest one while being guarded by Lowry). I think what really killed us was his ability to get his hands on every loose ball... the guy was all over the court!

    Demar was unstoppable and scoring on everybody as well, if you actually watched the game. 10/23 with 36 points 16/17 at the free throw line.

    So what exactly was your point?? That these guys are all-stars and amazing?? Butler had the better game of the two..... but let's not pretend that Demar didn't go off either.
    i don't understand your argument here.

    Derozan scored well. Butler scored just as well AND totally shut down our best player. We do not have a single player who can defend as well as that, let alone do so while still producing on offence.

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    Quote Jangles wrote: View Post
    His point was to show you that good defenders can in fact slow down all stars, without it being 'nearly impossible'. Are you intentionally being dense?
    LOL - His point was flawed and i wonder if you are actually being dense.

    Jimmy Butler was actually guarding Demar for most of that game ....did he mention that?? Did you notice that Jimmy Butler didn't really slow down Demar at all? We also ran plays to get switches, pick and roll, etc.

    Of course Lowry would struggle while being guarded by someone just as quick and 8 inches taller than him!! Does this need to be said??

    Overall Demar even shot a better percentage than Jimmy Butler who nailed a step back 3 over Lowry to seal it. All hail Jimmy "always a career night against the Raptors" Butler. Jimmy was unstoppable, Demar was unstoppable....Lowry is usually unstoppable.

    It was Jimmy Butler who had the better night and they won in overtime. Yipee....now lets switch our all-star for theirs.....That will solve all our problems and we will beat Cleveland now. (I'm intentionally being sarcastic).

    We lost and we get it. But lets not pretend that Demar was "shut down" or contained.....Jimmy just had the better night.
    Last edited by special1; Mon Jan 9th, 2017 at 09:26 AM.

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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    i don't understand your argument here.

    Derozan scored well. Butler scored just as well AND totally shut down our best player. We do not have a single player who can defend as well as that, let alone do so while still producing on offence.
    I'm not arguing that Jimmy gave Lowry problems.....lol Its actually obvious why!

    Someone totally created that argument out of nowhere. My argument was simply that Demar had 36 points while being guarded by Jimmy Butler for most of the game and Chicago couldn't stop him either.

  4. #15924
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL - His point was flawed and i wonder if you are actually being dense.

    Jimmy Butler was actually guarding Demar for most of that game ....did he mention that?? Did you notice that Jimmy Butler didn't really slow down Demar at all? We also ran plays to get switches, pick and roll, etc.

    Of course Lowry would struggle while being guarded by someone just as quick and 8 inches taller than him!! Does this need to be said??

    Overall Demar even shot a better percentage than Jimmy Butler who nailed a step back 3 over Lowry to seal it. All hail Jimmy "always a career night against the Raptors" Butler. Jimmy was unstoppable, Demar was unstoppable....Lowry is usually unstoppable.

    It was Jimmy Butler who had the better night and they won in overtime. Yipee....now lets switch our all-star for theirs.....That will solve all our problems and we will beat Cleveland now. (I'm intentionally being sarcastic).

    We lost and we get it. But lets not pretend that Demar was "shut down" or contained.....Jimmy just had the better night.
    Sorry spec, but I think you mis-read that or I just wrote it poorly, so it could be interpreted 2 ways.

    What I wrote was: "Butler was defending Lowry and shut him down in the 4th quarter, which was the turning point of the game."

    I think the team has gotten into the mindset of trying to win with offense alone and Lowry and DD have to step up and start playing harder on that end. DeMar will never be Butler or PG, but he can play harder when he wants to. Casey called him out (jokingly) after Team USA and asked, "how come you can play defense for them?".

    Lowry and DD are the leaders of the team and the others will fall in line when they start giving more effort on D.
    Last edited by golden; Mon Jan 9th, 2017 at 09:50 AM.

  5. #15925
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Sorry spec, but I think you mis-read that or I just wrote it poorly, so it could be interpreted 2 ways.

    What I wrote was: "Butler was defending Lowry and shut him down in the 4th quarter, which was the turning point of the game."

    I think the team has gotten into the mindset of trying to win with offense alone and Lowry and DD have to step up and start playing harder on that end. DeMar will never be Butler or PG, but he can play harder when he wants to. Casey called him out (jokingly) after Team USA and asked, "how come you can play defense for them?".

    Lowry and DD are the leaders of the team and the others will fall in line when they start giving more effort on D.
    My bad Gold. I think it was worded poorly but I appreciate the explanation.

    Re: the bold - I honestly, don't understand this thinking at all. Is James Harden a better defender than Demar? OR is he simply a better offensive player and playmaker with a team better suited to his strengths and weaknesses??

    It should no longer be a debate around here but it is because of JV. Demar and Kyle both need a mobile rim protecting Center behind them. Period. Kyle and Demar will never be great defenders. They are about average and that's okay. We need better defenders around them (Carroll could be much better, Cojo could be much better, JV could be much better, etc.). To ask for more from our all-stars when it's proven (forget the rare cases) that the more offensive usage a player has, the more the defense will slip, simply because its a lot to ask.
    Last edited by special1; Mon Jan 9th, 2017 at 10:23 AM.

  6. #15926
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    It should no longer be a debate around here but it is because of JV. Demar and Kyle both need a mobile rim protecting Center behind them. Period. Kyle and Demar will never be great defenders. They are about average and that's okay. We need better defenders around them (Carroll could be much better, Cojo could be much better, JV could be much better, etc.). To ask for more from our all-stars when it's proven (forget the rare cases) that the more offensive usage a player has, the more the defense will slip, simply because its a lot to ask.
    So how bout we lower that usage. We've got a super efficient big man just waiting for some more touches.

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  8. #15927
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I think the team has gotten into the mindset of trying to win with offense alone and Lowry and DD have to step up and start playing harder on that end. DeMar will never be Butler or PG, but he can play harder when he wants to. Casey called him out (jokingly) after Team USA and asked, "how come you can play defense for them?".

    Lowry and DD are the leaders of the team and the others will fall in line when they start giving more effort on D.
    This has absolutely happened for a couple of stretches this season, the team falls in love with their offence and they take possessions off far too regularly, especially Lowry and DeRozan. There are some possessions in the bad games where those guys hardly seem to care, e.g. they put no effort into fighting through a screen, they dive out of bounds in the offensive end and make absolutely no effort to hustle back to get their main on D, etc.

    Good defence is NEVER accomplished by taking it easy, great defenders are built on the fact that they hustle constantly, they don't coast. This team doesn't have a great defence but is capable of aiming for a pretty good defence, but it takes continual hard work, focus, and execution from the entire team. We've already seen this swing back and forth, from a bottom 10 DRTG in November to a top 10 DRTG in December, now they've lost it again since that tough Christmas schedule and they need to get it back.

    They also seem to have a tendency to focus only on their offence when playing high scoring teams.
    "Control DeRozan's catch-shoot game. He rarely passes. Defend the ball. Much of what they do reverses to 1 on 1 play." -- Visitor Locker Room Whiteboard, Air Canada Centre, Feb. 26, 2015

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    ... To ask for more from our all-stars when it's proven (forget the rare cases) that the more offensive usage a player has, the more the defense will slip, simply because its a lot to ask.
    but it's on the coach to max out combo of DEF+OFF, right? If you're maxing out just one aspect of the game at the cost of another one going complete sh..t, what are the chances PO come? And what does that speaks about coach?

    And the side effect (not very obvious but very impactfull) of stars coasting on defense is bad influence on team spirit. The rest of the Raptors team is a very young one (thus extremely mentally prone) - cruise control from senior players in DD, Kyle, Carrol leads to mental lapses and frustration, especially taking into account non-existent role on offense or double standards of accountability.

  10. #15929
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    My bad Gold. I think it was worded poorly but I appreciate the explanation.

    Re: the bold - I honestly, don't understand this thinking at all. Is James Harden a better defender than Demar? OR is he simply a better offensive player and playmaker with a team better suited to his strengths and weaknesses??

    It should no longer be a debate around here but it is because of JV. Demar and Kyle both need a mobile rim protecting Center behind them. Period. Kyle and Demar will never be great defenders. They are about average and that's okay. We need better defenders around them (Carroll could be much better, Cojo could be much better, JV could be much better, etc.). To ask for more from our all-stars when it's proven (forget the rare cases) that the more offensive usage a player has, the more the defense will slip, simply because its a lot to ask.
    If this was the 2013-14 team, then I'd fully agree that Lowry & DD probably need to carry the offense mostly by themselves. But this version of the Raps might be the deepest team in the NBA. Lowry & DD don't need to conserve their energy on D for offense. They could decide to pass the ball around and run plays for talented role players. This team has offensive options and it's Lowry & DD's choice to play this way. Spread the ball around on offense and play harder perimeter D is also a readily available option, that doesn't require trades. Just a change in attitude and trust.

    In fact, the "role players" already proved irrefutably that they can bail out historically bad offense from Lowry & DD in the playoffs, when it counts, against a tough defensive team. And it wasn't just because of Biz - the first round was won more because of JV and even CoJo. Biz emerged when JV went down.

    And DeMar simply isn't in the same class as James Harden offensively, especially when you factor in passing IQ and 3-pt shot / frequency. Demar really doesn't provide the same kind of overall threat or impact on his team that Beard does, other than raw points. Harden is even more efficient and is also rebounding this year. He's top 3 with Westbrook and Lebron for MVP.
    Last edited by golden; Mon Jan 9th, 2017 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #15930
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    Quote tDotted wrote: View Post
    So how bout we lower that usage. We've got a super efficient big man just waiting for some more touches.
    So you honestly think that JV's defense is good enough as is? How would that solve our defensive issues? Wouldn't they still need to work to get the ball inside to JV? Or are you expecting him to ISO every time? Do we not need a mobile rim protector that can actually rebound? I still don't see how this actually fixes our defensive issues....I guess it would make you feel better.

    I'd rather not take anything away from our all-stars.....let's just get better fit around them. I think that is the better path. I honestly would rather the ball in the hands of our all-stars as much as possible.....The same way other teams want their all-stars making the decisions at crunch time.

  12. #15931
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    If this was the 2013-14 team, then I'd fully agree that Lowry & DD probably need to carry the offense mostly by themselves. But this version of the Raps might be the deepest team in the NBA. Lowry & DD don't need to conserve their energy on D for offense. They could decide to pass the ball around and run plays for talented role players. This team has offensive options and it's Lowry & DD's choice to play this way. Spread the ball around on offense and play harder perimeter D is also a readily available option, that doesn't require trades. Just a change in attitude and trust.

    In fact, the "role players" already proved irrefutably that they can bail out historically bad offense from Lowry & DD in the playoffs, when it counts, against a tough defensive team. And it wasn't just because of Biz - the first round was won more because of JV and even CoJo. Biz emerged when JV went down.
    I think we overate our role players to the max around here.

    This team is where its at because of Kyle Lowry and Demar Derozan period. Look what happens when any one of the role players (except Patterson, because he's the best all around Big on the team) are out. Remember when JV went down for a whole bunch of games last year? We didn't even skip a beat...this without a backup C to help Biz. This team is more than fine and if you want to say that we can't find replacements for these guys or if we can't win without either of them....then go ahead.

    I find our role players are very inconsistent. I don't trust them to show up in very big games to be honest. If you do....then great.

    In theory, playing like Atlanta feels good and all, but we always beat them the way we play. So i'm tired of hearing the "share the ball around and let anyone take a shot BS." You win with stars in this league.

    I admit KL and DD had a really really really rough playoffs in the first two rounds and we almost lost both series because of it. I very much doubt that will ever happen again, now that they have the monkey off their backs.

    I still believe that you want the ball in the hands of your all-stars and let them create or take that shot.

  13. #15932
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    Kyle's elbow was a factor in the first rd iirc.

  14. #15933
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    This makes the celtics game a lot easier. We have to win this game Bradley is arguably been their 2nd best player this year.

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    Quote slamdunk23 wrote: View Post



    This makes the celtics game a lot easier. We have to win this game Bradley is arguably been their 2nd best player this year.
    Demar should have a high scoring game with Bradley out.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    So you honestly think that JV's defense is good enough as is? How would that solve our defensive issues? Wouldn't they still need to work to get the ball inside to JV? Or are you expecting him to ISO every time? Do we not need a mobile rim protector that can actually rebound? I still don't see how this actually fixes our defensive issues....I guess it would make you feel better.

    I'd rather not take anything away from our all-stars.....let's just get better fit around them. I think that is the better path. I honestly would rather the ball in the hands of our all-stars as much as possible.....The same way other teams want their all-stars making the decisions at crunch time.
    Lol wow. You just said that two perimeter players are playing bad defensively because of their usage. Two players that earn the most minutes on the team. Why are you going back to JV's D? How much work does it require to pass it off to another guy when he establishes position and let him attempt a shot? (Maybe his post up game is so boring it drains them of their energy)

    I think his bad D is overblown. He's no stopper, but he's not bad enough to warrant sitting him for huge chunks of the game when he's our most talented big man. Against the Bulls for example, I think he played a pretty good game defensively (he was in very good position more often than not to contest shots inside but was called for some ridiculous fouls with his hands straight up) yet he gets benched for (almost?) the whole 4th quarter.

    If I could talk to JV I'd tell him to not be so concerned with fouling and just really try to bother the shot. He's so concerned with keeping out of foul trouble.. which is fruitless because Casey isn't gonna give him 30+ minutes on a regular night no matter what anyway.

  18. #15937
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    Quote big boi wrote: View Post
    Ahem isiah Thomas and Joe dumars.
    what year is it?

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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    what year is it?
    Klay Thompson and steph curry
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
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  20. #15939
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    Quote tDotted wrote: View Post
    Lol wow. You just said that two perimeter players are playing bad defensively because of their usage. Two players that earn the most minutes on the team. Why are you going back to JV's D? How much work does it require to pass it off to another guy when he establishes position and let him attempt a shot? (Maybe his post up game is so boring it drains them of their energy)

    I think his bad D is overblown. He's no stopper, but he's not bad enough to warrant sitting him for huge chunks of the game when he's our most talented big man. Against the Bulls for example, I think he played a pretty good game defensively (he was in very good position more often than not to contest shots inside but was called for some ridiculous fouls with his hands straight up) yet he gets benched for (almost?) the whole 4th quarter.

    If I could talk to JV I'd tell him to not be so concerned with fouling and just really try to bother the shot. He's so concerned with keeping out of foul trouble.. which is fruitless because Casey isn't gonna give him 30+ minutes on a regular night no matter what anyway.
    I agree with the bold.... and its probably what makes him look even worse defensively than he probably is. It's like he's scared to touch the guys driving to our basket, while the other team's Bigs are giving HARD fouls when our guys drive inside. If he played more aggressive consistently, he might get away with more (like other bigs who seem to get away with a lot of contact).

    To me its just too soft and its not the mentality I want from our C..... you have to make guys think twice about coming inside. If you're going to pick up a foul, make sure its not an and-1 either. You get 6 fouls, might as well make them count.
    Last edited by special1; Mon Jan 9th, 2017 at 05:39 PM.

  21. #15940
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    Quote tDotted wrote: View Post
    So how bout we lower that usage. We've got a super efficient big man just waiting for some more touches.
    Why doesn't OKC start Kanter and give him more touches to bring down Westbrook's usage? He's just as, if not more capable (i'd argue more) of scoring 20 points and grabbing 10 plus boards a game as Jonas is.

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