Everything 2017 Off-Season

[golden]

It's also overvaluing particular stats over others. DanH places such an insanely high value on on-off stats and uses it to excuse Lowry's abysmal play in the playoffs.

One of the biggest problems using on/off when evaluating Player A's impact is: who the guy is that is usually on when Player A is off. If that guy is Scola or Siakam playing against starting lineups, then 2Pat is gonna look like a star. If that other guy is Ibaka, then, not so much. This doesn't even take into account favorable player combinations & situations, like 2Pat + Lowry vs. other team's benches.

[DanH]

One of the biggest problems using on/off when evaluating Player A's impact is: who the guy is that is usually on when Player A is off. If that guy is Scola or Siakam playing against starting lineups, then 2Pat is gonna look like a star. If that other guy is Ibaka, then, not so much. This doesn't even take into account favorable player combinations & situations, like 2Pat + Lowry vs. other team's benches.

Which is why I've only ever used it to compare player roles on different teams, or argue for Pat to start over Scola, for example, where the whole point of the argument is precisely that the substitute player is far better (or a far better fit) than the starter, causing that massive on-off split.

I fully support using lineup data, player pairing data, and WOWYs to get a better picture of the context of those on-off splits. Which is why I always do.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

One of the biggest problems using on/off when evaluating Player A's impact is: who the guy is that is usually on when Player A is off. If that guy is Scola or Siakam playing against starting lineups, then 2Pat is gonna look like a star. If that other guy is Ibaka, then, not so much. This doesn't even take into account favorable player combinations & situations, like 2Pat + Lowry vs. other team's benches.

Another problem with it on our team specifically is I think it overrates Lowry with respect to DeMar. Now look I am not saying DeMar is better but Lowry isn't "carrying" the team like DanH likes to insinuate.

The fundamental problem with the DeMar+Bench lineups isn't the lack of Lowry, it's the fact that there is no spacing. Lowry is a shooter so this is less of an issue in his lineup, but when you put DeMar out there with literally only one shooter (2Pat) who isn't even a competent shooter, you basically collapse the floor offensively. That's why the DeMar+Bench lineups have tended to be low assist rate, mediocre to poor offensively and ok to good defensively (was very good when Biyombo was here).

[DanH]

Another problem with it on our team specifically is I think it overrates Lowry with respect to DeMar. Now look I am not saying DeMar is better but Lowry isn't "carrying" the team like DanH likes to insinuate.

The fundamental problem with the DeMar+Bench lineups isn't the lack of Lowry, it's the fact that there is no spacing. Lowry is a shooter so this is less of an issue in his lineup, but when you put DeMar out there with literally only one shooter (2Pat) who isn't even a competent shooter, you basically collapse the floor offensively. That's why the DeMar+Bench lineups have tended to be low assist rate, mediocre to poor offensively and ok to good defensively (was very good when Biyombo was here).

You mean the DeMar and bench units that have consistently had both Patterson and Ross in them for the majority of the two years they were used here? Heck, the DeMar and bench primary unit success is not even the reason for the big difference between the two players' on-off splits - two years ago DeMar's primary bench unit was just as good as Lowry's. It's the various transitional lineups that both players are used in around their primary bench units that make the biggest difference. So it's not any one lineup construct that makes the difference anyway.

And Lowry being a shooter is kind of a part of why he's a higher impact player than DeMar.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Kyrie is better long-term than Kyle, point blank. The only place you'll find dispute to that is a Raptors fan forum.

[ogi]

Ok so let's completely forget advanced stats for a moment. When has kyrie ever shown that he could run an even semi successful NBA offense? What in his game do you see that suggests that?

[tDotted]

Lol, this Lowry vs Kyrie debate AGAIN.

Kyle was never on the table people. He can't even be traded until December.

[Mess]

It appears the TSN radio interview did its trick and generated some August NBA content for Canada.

[GOLDBLUM]

I think you greatly underestimate American star players' continued reluctance to play outside the US.

One of the main reasons we've been able to have this level of success these last several years is the fact that Demar is as humble and loyal as he is and that he and Kyle struck up the chemistry they have, both on and off the court, that they've found a way to win together. In the scheme of today's NBA, we've got humble stars.

Kyrie's ego as is big as this flat earth that we live on. And all of the great things you mentioned about where the Raptors have come to with our situation still wouldn't be enough to dwarf Kyrie's 'me-first' mentality.

Raptors have largely succeeded in creating an organizational culture. I think we could find ourselves surprised at how quickly things go south if they were to take that for granted.

Not saying we shouldn't pursue stars. But to assume that Kyrie would re-up ... I wouldn't put a lot of my faith in the soundness of his decision-making.

[MixxAOR]

Kyrie is better long-term than Kyle, point blank. The only place you'll find dispute to that is a Raptors fan forum.

For many teams Kyrie makes a lot more sense than Kyle. Each team has it's own situation. For Raptors Kyrie doesn't really make sense.

[c-troop]

Lol, this Lowry vs Kyrie debate AGAIN.

Kyle was never on the table people. He can't even be traded until December.

nailed it

[Shaolin Fantastic]

The regard people hold Lowry with here is absurd. If not for the pasting that he was giving by Wall head to head in 2015 I'm sure many would argue that he was better than him also.

[The Great One]

#LeBronWatch

LeBron James is "100 percent leaving" leaving the Cavaliers after the 2017-18 season, per @sheridanhoops ➡️ https://t.co/NKqjwDecgW pic.twitter.com/b6wOnofAr6

— SLAM Magazine (@SLAMonline) August 16, 2017

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Even looking at on-off. Cavs are +6.2 with Kyrie on the floor. Raps are +7.5 with Kyle. Considering that most of the time when Kyrie is off the floor, LeBron is on... that actually hurts Kyrie's on-off rating.

He's better than Kyle long-term easily.

[rocwell]

Even looking at on-off. Cavs are +6.2 with Kyrie on the floor. Raps are +7.5 with Kyle. Considering that most of the time when Kyrie is off the floor, LeBron is on... that actually hurts Kyrie's on-off rating.

He's better than Kyle long-term easily.

Cavs are -120 in 600+ mins w/ Kyrie on the floor and LeBron resting