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  • Rudy Gay has opted out and presumably will leave Sac town. Therefore they will have lots of cap room and will trade their future for Demarre Carroll!

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    • I think the sign and trade is our weapon to get better this off season

      They keep saying we need shooting...

      But Ibaka, Tucker, Carroll, Patterson, Lowry, Powell, can all shoot the three between 35 and 45%

      What we need is an offensive system that generates open looks for them.

      Our guard oriented ISO offense has been shut down four years in a row now
      For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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      • Primer wrote: View Post
        I remember when fans were foaming at the mouth for us to tank for Wiggins or Jabari Parker. Have either of those guys turned their teams fortunes around? Made them able to contend with the Cavs and Warriors of the world? If you want a top 5 draft pick you trade for it, don't tank for it. That way you still have a team for that draft pick to play on, instead of a pile of hot garbage that's 4 years away from being 4 years away.

        JV is the obvious candidate who could bring back a high pick. Something like JV + our first + taking back a bad contract to match JV's salary. We have Poeltl who can step in at C so the team won't lose much if anything from the win column. Much better than a tank job.
        This is just false logic.

        If you tank you don't do it for one season. You do it for multiple seasons until you have your cornerstone and can surround him with other high-upside supporting players. This would mean high draft picks from 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 with a ton of cap space to fill in the holes when the time comes.

        That also allows you to play your young pieces the requisite minutes they need to develop. Look at the TWolves this year. Thibs is a fiery competitive guy and he still didn't force a win-now deal.

        The structure of the NBA just doesn't reward building from the middle. The Spurs had a Hall of Famer in Duncan, and it took them fourteen years to find his successor.

        The second we have our Hall of Fame cornerstone I'll be fine with building from the middle, but until then we are just wasting time. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are literally a hundred other midround players who don't amount to shit. It's been shown over and over again that Hall of Famers are mostly drafted at the top of the draft, and to pin your hopes on the middle rounds is to invest in a dream of winning the lottery.

        Remember when the Knicks pick was supposed to be our franchise-altering pick? We traded for it and it didn't move the needle for us. Because the probabilities just aren't there.

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        • Scraptor wrote: View Post
          This is just false logic.

          If you tank you don't do it for one season. You do it for multiple seasons until you have your cornerstone and can surround him with other high-upside supporting players. This would mean high draft picks from 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 with a ton of cap space to fill in the holes when the time comes.

          That also allows you to play your young pieces the requisite minutes they need to develop. Look at the TWolves this year. Thibs is a fiery competitive guy and he still didn't force a win-now deal.

          The structure of the NBA just doesn't reward building from the middle. The Spurs had a Hall of Famer in Duncan, and it took them fourteen years to find his successor.

          The second we have our Hall of Fame cornerstone I'll be fine with building from the middle, but until then we are just wasting time. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are literally a hundred other midround players who don't amount to shit. It's been shown over and over again that Hall of Famers are mostly drafted at the top of the draft, and to pin your hopes on the middle rounds is to invest in a dream of winning the lottery.

          Remember when the Knicks pick was supposed to be our franchise-altering pick? We traded for it and it didn't move the needle for us. Because the probabilities just aren't there.
          Which successful team built via the method you outline above?

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          • Primer wrote: View Post
            Which successful team built via the method you outline above?
            Clippers, Warriors, Thunder, Jazz,
            For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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            • Deems wrote: View Post
              How many Hall of Famers have been drafted outside of the top 10?
              Since 1970 (arguably the start of the modern era of basketball), and only counting the guys who are hall of famers for NBA play rather than international play - which you have to do, because sure, Seattle drafted Arvydas Sabonis outside of the top ten and a few other HOF members of the Russian and Lithuanian Communist-era teams got drafted into the NBA with late picks when their international careers were mostly over, but that's not a duplicable event - it's not many.

              It's thirteen: Calvin Murphy and Tiny Archibald in 1970, Spencer Haywood in 71, George McGinnis in 73, Jamaal Wilkes and George Gervin in 74, Alex English and Dennis Johnson in 76, Clyde Drexler in 83, John Stockton in 84, Karl Malone and Joe Dumars in 85, and Reggie Miller in 86.

              That's thirteen players over 16 drafts, when drafting was much less of a science than it is now, many of whom only made the Hall because they played in the "cocaine era" when the NBA was arguably at its worst point in terms of play. Most of them also got drafted around the 11-14 spots overall so it's not like they fell far in the draft.

              If you want to cheat a little you can add Kobe, and Manu Ginobli because he's a surefire Hall of Famer and the Spurs snagged him 59th, but Manu isn't really duplicable either because the Spurs drafting Manu and Tony Parker forced most of the rest of the NBA to up their international scouting game, and now everybody invests heavily in the international scouting market.

              If you get a credible rotation player out of a second round draft pick, you've effectively won the lotto already. Sure, Norman Powell is great, but consider that the only other second-round Raptor pick to ever even see NBA minutes is Quincy Acy and he's an end-of-the-bench guy at best.

              Kobe Bryant, Jimmy Butler, Isaiah Thomas, Rudy Gobert, Deandre Jordan, Draymond Green, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis and so on. It just requires good scouting and luck.
              It requires a LOT of luck, and that's the problem. You're looking at the success stories and ignoring all of the failures and busts and averagenesses surrounding them. Like, yeah, Milwaukee drafted Giannis 16th and Utah drafted Gobert 27th. That didn't happen because other teams didn't know about those guys. It happened because there was a very, very substantial risk that Giannis and Gobert would not be able to play basketball at the NBA level, and other teams decided to try their luck on prospects they considered surer things.

              Look at all the busts in the 2013 draft that went before they did: Anthony Bennett, Michael Carter-Williams, Trey Burke, and then there are the guys like Ben McLemore and Alex Len who are on very thin ice, and the guys like Shane Larkin and Sergey Karasev who had their shot and couldn't make it happen. Look at all the guys who are just GONE from the 2012 draft who got drafted before Draymond Green did: Kendall Marshall, Royce White, Marquis Teague, Arnett Moultrie, John Jenkins, Jared Cunningham, Tony Wroten, Perry Jones III, Jeffery Taylor, Bernard James, and poor Fab Melo. There's another half-dozen guys who aren't going to be in the league after their next contract ends.

              Think of it from a Raptor perspective: we gave Terrence Ross four years to make it happen, and it never really did, and sure he always had promise but at some point promise isn't enough, so we traded him to Orlando and they gave him the starter minutes he always wanted and - his shooting percentages went down, just like they always did whenever we gave him more minutes. Ross is a decent bench player in the NBA, and for a #8 pick that's not ideal but perfectly acceptable.

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              • thead wrote: View Post
                Clippers, Warriors, Thunder, Jazz,
                Might be able to somewhat put CLE there too lol...Kyrie #1 overall, LBJ #1 overall (but yes came in FA again) and traded Wiggins & Bennett (both #1s for Love).

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                • When Bosh left, how long did it take us to get back into playoffs? 3 years. We really became elite Eastern Conference team last year. Took a step back this year. If we tank, will it take us 3 years to get back into playoffs. How long will it takes us to become contenders? 4 or 5? Where will you be in 5 years? Damn man.
                  Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                  • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                    When Bosh left, how long did it take us to get back into playoffs? 3 years. We really became elite Eastern Conference team last year. Took a step back this year. If we tank, will it take us 3 years to get back into playoffs. How long will it takes us to become contenders? 4 or 5? Where will you be in 5 years? Damn man.
                    You tank you are looking at a minimum of 3-4 years at the bottom just to find a couple of new franchise pieces to begin building around. As they improve over the subsequent 2-3 years you bring in the better role players in that 8-15 slot in the draft and then probably 5-6 years out from when you originally started tanking you start to get Playoff appearances unless you draft a generational talent like LBJ, Durant etc that will get you there in about 2-3 years.

                    All the more reason I can not see MLSE allowing it.

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                    • You don't need to tank to become elite.. just need to trade the right player for the right reward. Lowry is untradeable since he's a free agent.. As is Ibaka. DD can be but I think you bring the band back for one more go around.

                      Then next summer you have a fire sale. Perhaps we can keep DD and hang on to him.. or we trade him and start fresh. But the conversation to tank is next off season not this one.

                      We need one more playoff run before we abandon ship. In the meantime we can start with a new coach.. hopefully MLSE is okay to pay Casey $12M and some additional $$$ for a new coach (maybe Stack - who'll be cheap) for a one year flyer. If we continue to fail next year with a new coach.. then that coach can go too.

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                      • thead wrote: View Post
                        Clippers, Warriors, Thunder, Jazz,
                        Clippers and Jazz? They never even made the NBA Finals, and the Jazz haven't even gotten to the conference finals.

                        Clippers also traded for a guy named Chris Paul, didn't tank to get him, and he's the reason they're relevant and good. They didn't have 4 straight years of high draft picks to get where they are.

                        Warriors only tanked on accident when Curry went out for the season and they just kinda sucked without him. They also added a lot of key players via trade, players who they would never have won the title without. Not to mention Draymond Green was not a high draft pick, and he's pretty important to that team.

                        There are a ton more teams that are as successful or more successful than all the teams you mentioned that didn't build their team via tanking.

                        Every team who has tried the suck for 4 straight years strategy still sucks.

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                        • How much money do we have to spend next year relative to the new cap?

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                          • Primer wrote: View Post

                            Warriors only tanked on accident when Curry went out for the season and they just kinda sucked without him. They also added a lot of key players via trade, players who they would never have won the title without. Not to mention Draymond Green was not a high draft pick, and he's pretty important to that team.
                            All that said they still tanked for Curry lol

                            ...and with no Curry there would be no championship team or appeal. They absolutely tanked for Barnes to win the coin flip or lose the pick and were in the lottery to get Klay. If they just stayed in the middle, there would be no Splash Bros, Draymond is the complimentary piece not the 2 time reigning MVP lol

                            Not to mention Clippers were in position to trade for Paul because they gave up their high draft picks (Eric Gordon, Aminu and an unprotected 2012), Griffin of course was #1 overall and they were pretty much exclusively a lottery team until that point so they certainly qualify for the 4 years lol

                            OKC could also be thrown into this conversation as well because of course we know that all of Harden, Russ and KD were top 5 picks....

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                            • This is what I think the Raptors should do! I know I'm back again.

                              First of all, it has been a pleasure watching the Raptors playing in the playoff, especially against the Bucks and how much of an effort and pressure the Raptors had against the Cavs but only to be swept by them, guess we will revenge against them in the upcoming season but still, they would win effortless. I know, no Lowry in the final two games is an excuse for an early exit from the final, oh well, let's look ahead. Second of all, Patrick Patterson a now in the end of the playoff/season conference, is an indication, his likely gone. As for Casey, his in Ujiri's hot seat and I expect to return for one more season.

                              So what's left.

                              Lowry - He decide to opt out his contract to test FA is a smart move and I believe the Raptors will resign him back, his the back bone of the franchise. His gone if and only if the he takes a max deal from the 76ers and I see them being the only team who would exceed all other teams including the Raptors to offer Lowry a max deal

                              DeRozan - His our King and he delivers every single game except 1-2 game against the Bucks and Cavs. His a keeper, the true cornerstone of our franchise and will likely surpass Vince and Damon Stoudamire for being the greatest ever played for the Raptors.

                              DMC - This guy was nonexistent in the playoff but he did well in a few games, yeah against the Bucks maybe. I say, we need to package him in a deal to acquire a better defender or a shooter

                              Ibaka - He sucked, yep that sums up his playoff and a lesser tenure with us in the season. I don't see him being in our long term plan, I say we need to acquire a young PF through FA or through the draft and have him sign a multi year with other teams instead

                              Val - There is a likely chance that his gone, he looks lost from time to time and I don't see him in our rotation on the long term. It would be good to see him along with one of our guy in the mid season next year so keep him around at the start of the season to boost his value as our trade bait.

                              Benchers
                              Cory Joseph - He did ok, I mean he played his hearts out against Irving but his no match in the last two games but his still a serviceable backup PG to keep around

                              Norman Powell - This is the guy we need to decide whether to sign him to a multi year contract or have him opt out next season and my guts feeling is the latter since no good or sleeper players who ever played for the Raptors played long enough to keep around unless his a franchise to be build around (Hint: JYD, Donyell Marshall, Dion Glover, Jamario Moon)

                              PJ Tucker - I know he came in pretty late for us in the season but he played well in the playoff, if it weren't for his defense, we would probably loose to the Bucks. I say we give him a two year vet minimum deal and have him stick around for us, would look good for the young guys in the lockeroom especially if we draft a SG or a SF

                              Patrick Patterson - Pretty much sum up about him, goodbye, won't miss ya

                              Poeltl/Nogueira/Siakam - I see them stay put with the Raptors, maybe Nogueira being the odd man out

                              Delon Wright - The darkhorse of a player for us in the season and playoff, starts to show promises why we picked him up as opposed to Bobby Portis, I see him back and possibly become our future backup PG

                              FVV - Goodbye, thanks for your service

                              Bruno - Hey, his our 905 Champ, our little big bro who dominated in the D-League, I say give him a 2 year minimum deal and have him at least play a few games for us next season

                              So Where to From Here

                              Draft - We have one pick in the mid 20s, I say we draft the BPA, I mean we won't hesitate to draft base on need. What's available at that range can be our role players like Delon or possibly a Rodney Hood gem in the discovery. Only time will tell.

                              FA - Vince Carter, I know we might get the old Vince back and I believe playoff Vince or any Vince is better than DMC and even at the age of 41, I see him fare well for us and it's good for our tradition, have him retire and become a player coach kind of guy for us

                              Other UFA/FA/D-League/Euroleague, Only time will tell but I believe Ujiri is sitting down with both DeRozan and Lowry and discussing what needs to be done with the team and how we can move forward. As of right now, if we won't make any changes and with one of Lowry or Ibaka back, I still see us making to the playoff, no questions about that, but if we are gonna repeat again next year, or become a 1st round exit in the playoff, I believe the Raptors will probably blow the entire organization. As of today, I say we had a stellar season and a run with the Cavs in the playoff, let's keep it steady and work it out from here. I see some minor changes in a few weeks leading up to the draft and FA signing
                              Last edited by tenforthewin; Mon May 8, 2017, 07:13 PM.

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                              • Solid post Magoon. Ftr: Perry Jones III had a sick HS mixtape and I still believe in PJ3!

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