Masai Ujiri said "We need a culture reset"

[DanH]

There's so much about DeMar not having much success with the three but why can't we be happy with a guy who was the fifth best scorer in the league last year regardless of how he gets it? Don't bite. It's a rhetorical question. I know the answer. It's DeMar. But that said, maybe it's not on DeMar to hit threes. Think of how many times he drove to the hoop, was closed off and fired it out to the perimeter for someone else to take an open three? Clank...brick...Maybe the culture change is getting people who are legitimate 3pt threats on the perimeter to just do their job. That will help the outside game. That will help the inside game. That puts a lot of pressure on Miles, Powell etc but I think that's the thin margin we have.

The whole "guys bricking open shots" thing is completely overblown. DeMar generated 8 potential assists each game, and averaged just about 4 assists, slightly under 50% conversion rate by his teammates. Almost every top assist guy in the league had a teammate conversion rate on potential assists very close to 50%, with a few exceptions up close to 60% being the very best passers in the game (Chris Paul, Ricky Rubio, who find more guys than most for layups). If DeMar generated more potential assists, he'd get more assists. His teammates don't brick at a rate significantly different than the teammates of most top assist guys.

Meanwhile I couldn't care less if DeMar adds a three. He handles the ball as the attacking guard anyway, and he'll never be a pull up threat, so adding a consistent spot up three from above the break will barely impact him at all. Improving his awareness and decision making, knowing when to pass before he absolutely has to, how to hit the roller, seeing cutters when driving - that's the offensive improvement I want from him. He's been getting better, no doubt, but that's the area he needs to keep improving, not his distance shooting.

[golden]

There's so much about DeMar not having much success with the three but why can't we be happy with a guy who was the fifth best scorer in the league last year regardless of how he gets it? Don't bite. It's a rhetorical question. I know the answer. It's DeMar. But that said, maybe it's not on DeMar to hit threes. Think of how many times he drove to the hoop, was closed off and fired it out to the perimeter for someone else to take an open three? Clank...brick...Maybe the culture change is getting people who are legitimate 3pt threats on the perimeter to just do their job. That will help the outside game. That will help the inside game. That puts a lot of pressure on Miles, Powell etc but I think that's the thin margin we have.

We can fully appreciate Demar's success and everything about DeMar's character (which I totally do), but the reason we can't be completely happy is because Casey's offense and roster construction is built in large part to compensate for DeMar's lack of being a legitimate 3-pt threat. We can't move the ball. We can't run cutters. We can't hit the roll man. We need 3-pt shooters who can don't need touches or a system that gets them in rhythm. We need a lock-down perimeter defender. So, the issue is larger than DeMar himself. It's a fatal flaw that limits of ceiling of the team in the playoffs, but always looks great in the regular season.

[Jclaw]

valid points

[Scraptor]

We can fully appreciate Demar's success and everything about DeMar's character (which I totally do), but the reason we can't be completely happy is because Casey's offense and roster construction is built in large part to compensate for DeMar's lack of being a legitimate 3-pt threat. We can't move the ball. We can't run cutters. We can't hit the roll man. We need 3-pt shooters who can don't need touches or a system that gets them in rhythm. We need a lock-down perimeter defender. So, the issue is larger than DeMar himself. It's a fatal flaw that limits of ceiling of the team in the playoffs, but always looks great in the regular season.

I don't think it's really fair to pin the entire offensive system on DeMar's poor outside shooting. All those things you listed--moving the ball, hitting the roll man, having shooters who don't need touches--those are Casey issues far more than they are DeMar issues. If they were DeMar issues we wouldn't see the other guards like Powell and CoJo playing in a similar fashion.

Casey has been the head coach for six seasons, and had the opportunity to play DeMar however he wanted from his third season on, before he was a star. There has been zero evidence to suggest DeMar has resisted playing how Casey wanted him to; DeMar has always been very coachable. So if Casey wanted to play a different style, he could have. Heck when we had Rudy, who was arguably a bigger star than DeMar when he first arrived, we might have tried something different. But it was always taking turns to iso. And what about when Lou was leading the bench? Every single play to close a quarter was a Lou clearout/iso. That had nothing to do with DeMar.

If the only thing holding Casey back from a working playoff offense is one player's shortcoming then he really has no business being a coach. Popovich juggles all sorts of player weaknesses and turns his squads into workable units. Tony Parker never had an outside shot almost the entirety of his prime; Pop let him slice and toss floaters all day long.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Just a few advanced stats for DeMar: 104 ORTG, 16.6 PER, 0.062 WS. These are all meh to bad numbers. This is not what you're supposed to be getting from a 3-time all-star, max player.

And yes, there was a system-wide failure of the offense in the playoffs, which also points to Casey and Lowry.

So the way I look at that is this.

DanH was making the argument that Kyrie (who is the DeRozan comparable, high-usage volume scorer with so-so impact stats) plays so well in the playoffs because he gets to play off LeBron.


Hmm... so maybe if Lowry's play didn't drop off a cliff in the playoffs, DeRozan could continue to play well off of him like he does in the regular season.

The responsibility should be on the best player on the team to lead the way and, maintain or step up his play and have other guys feed off of him.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I don't think it's really fair to pin the entire offensive system on DeMar's poor outside shooting. All those things you listed--moving the ball, hitting the roll man, having shooters who don't need touches--those are Casey issues far more than they are DeMar issues. If they were DeMar issues we wouldn't see the other guards like Powell and CoJo playing in a similar fashion.

Casey has been the head coach for six seasons, and had the opportunity to play DeMar however he wanted from his third season on, before he was a star. There has been zero evidence to suggest DeMar has resisted playing how Casey wanted him to; DeMar has always been very coachable. So if Casey wanted to play a different style, he could have. Heck when we had Rudy, who was arguably a bigger star than DeMar when he first arrived, we might have tried something different. But it was always taking turns to iso. And what about when Lou was leading the bench? Every single play to close a quarter was a Lou clearout/iso. That had nothing to do with DeMar.

If the only thing holding Casey back from a working playoff offense is one player's shortcoming then he really has no business being a coach. Popovich juggles all sorts of player weaknesses and turns his squads into workable units. Tony Parker never had an outside shot almost the entirety of his prime; Pop let him slice and toss floaters all day long.

Just want to say this is a great post.

[tDotted]

So the way I look at that is this.

DanH was making the argument that Kyrie (who is the DeRozan comparable, high-usage volume scorer with so-so impact stats) plays so well in the playoffs because he gets to play off LeBron.


Hmm... so maybe if Lowry's play didn't drop off a cliff in the playoffs, DeRozan could continue to play well off of him like he does in the regular season.

T

[Ball]

I'm with you on this.

[Just Is]

I'd like to second this.

It was a very weird sense of logic.

[Chr1s1anL]

So the way I look at that is this.

DanH was making the argument that Kyrie (who is the DeRozan comparable, high-usage volume scorer with so-so impact stats) plays so well in the playoffs because he gets to play off LeBron.


Hmm... so maybe if Lowry's play didn't drop off a cliff in the playoffs, DeRozan could continue to play well off of him like he does in the regular season.

The responsibility should be on the best player on the team to lead the way and, maintain or step up his play and have other guys feed off of him.

I was waiting for someone to point this out. Would of said it myself but, wouldn't have the same affect coming from me.

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[DanH]

I was waiting for someone to point this out. Would of said it myself but, wouldn't have the same affect coming from me.

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Judging by the effect it did have in the replies to it, I think it would have had the exact same effect.

[DanH]

So the way I look at that is this.

DanH was making the argument that Kyrie (who is the DeRozan comparable, high-usage volume scorer with so-so impact stats) plays so well in the playoffs because he gets to play off LeBron.


Hmm... so maybe if Lowry's play didn't drop off a cliff in the playoffs, DeRozan could continue to play well off of him like he does in the regular season.

The responsibility should be on the best player on the team to lead the way and, maintain or step up his play and have other guys feed off of him.

I think it's pretty odd to say that Lowry's play drops off a cliff during the playoffs. His shooting does. He's still the only reason the Raptors win a single game in the playoffs. Even with JV's superhuman efforts in 2016, the team would have been swept in the 1st round without Lowry being simply amazing even when he struggles with his shot and the occasionally moronic and always easy to prep for offensive system they play. Which of course is the real and obvious reason why both guards struggle in the playoffs, not some convoluted domino effect stemming from Lowry mysteriously disappearing for no reason.

So, I mean, if we are accepting that Kyrie and DeMar are second tier stars who don't really drive their teams' success (as we obviously should be), then sure, DeMar's shooting is perfectly explainable. Of course, it just further highlights that DeMar doesn't help the team win all that much even when his performance is good by his standards, since by your own logic, he can only accomplish that by playing off of the superior player who is really determining whether the team wins or not. Colour me therefore unimpressed with even his rare successful playoff performance.

[tDotted]

I was waiting for someone to point this out. Would of said it myself but, wouldn't have the same affect coming from me.

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Of course it wouldn't have the same effect, it would just confuse the hell out of everyone even more. "DeMar is the inferior player and is dependent on Lowry to succeed" isn't something people see you post often. It's the exact opposite usually.

[Chr1s1anL]

Of course it wouldn't have the same effect, it would just confuse the hell out of everyone even more. "DeMar is the inferior player and is dependent on Lowry to succeed" isn't something people see you post often. It's the exact opposite usually.

I've said it before that the two players are depend on eachother to be successful. Kyle can't handle a huge scoring load and Deebo can't make up for the intangibles Lowry brings. Their success is dependent on eachother. When one isn't playing up to thier standard the other will struggle.

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[tDotted]

I've said it before that the two players are depend on eachother to be successful. Kyle can't handle a huge scoring load and Deebo can't make up for the intangibles Lowry brings. Their success is dependent on eachother. When one isn't playing up to thier standard the other will struggle.

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I don't think that's true. Lowry has shown repeatedly that he can carry the offense himself and make others around him better. In fact, many times Lowry/the team's offense will be better off statistically without DD on the court. DeMar's true value to Lowry comes over the course of a whole NBA season not a handful of playoff games.

I don't think it's really fair to pin the entire offensive system on DeMar's poor outside shooting. All those things you listed--moving the ball, hitting the roll man, having shooters who don't need touches--those are Casey issues far more than they are DeMar issues. If they were DeMar issues we wouldn't see the other guards like Powell and CoJo playing in a similar fashion.

I think it's completely fair to pin it on that. DeMar's a guy with a huge usage rate that provides no spacing, limited playmaking, and creates almost 90% of his own offence himself playing at a very slow and deliberate pace (completely unlike the quick Tony Parker). He's the ultimate "ball stopper" that I don't think the league has ever seen before. He's able to carve up regular season defenses but against more stout postseason opposition the offense becomes incredibly stagnant as he's less capable of creating defensive breakdowns.

Meanwhile I couldn't care less if DeMar adds a three. He handles the ball as the attacking guard anyway, and he'll never be a pull up threat, so adding a consistent spot up three from above the break will barely impact him at all. Improving his awareness and decision making, knowing when to pass before he absolutely has to, how to hit the roller, seeing cutters when driving - that's the offensive improvement I want from him. He's been getting better, no doubt, but that's the area he needs to keep improving, not his distance shooting.

I used to be firmly in this boat a month ago but putting more thought into it, he desperately needs a 3 ball. As JClaw pointed out, he often catches the ball above the 3pt line and pretty much waits for a defender to close out. The whole offensive possession turned from a routine open catch and shoot 3 to yet another DeRozan ISO.

Something has to change.

This change isn't going to happen by having DeMar handle the ball even more than he already does. Every year that his usage has increased, the team's assists per game ranking in the league has also dropped as well. We've gone from 20th in the league in 2013 to dead last in 2017. I know you didn't outright say he should handle the ball more, but that's kind of what Casey's implying with his point guard comments.

DeMar needs to learn how to play off the ball and operate within an offensive system. His impact offensively is minuscule for someone who scores as much as he does and that's in large part due to his stagnant style of play. I don't think he can quickly become the playmaker the team needs him to be in order to have the kind of impact that he could have by just shooting 36%+ on 3-4 attempts from deep.