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Thread: The Argument Against A Rebuild

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote LJ2 wrote: View Post
    We could land ourselves a great talent like when we got VC, but we weren't able to put anything around him. We sort landed another good player with T-Mac, then with Bosh, but again could not put a supporting cast around those guys.

    I'd rather take the Spurs approach. Stay competitive, and wait for the right time to use some assets to move up in the draft to nab a player you think can be special or to trade for a star when available. We aren't tied to Lowry, DeMar, Ibaka or whomever we sign this summer. They can be moved when the time is right.
    Actually we had VC and T-Mac. It was T-Mac's decision to be "The Man" in Orlando rather than second fiddle to VC that really fucked that team.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Actually we had VC and T-Mac. It was T-Mac's decision to be "The Man" in Orlando rather than second fiddle to VC that really fucked that team.
    That and the screwy FA rules back then.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar special1's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Probably 6-7 years. You'd need 3-4 years of pick accumulation and growing. Then a couple years of playoff experience.

    But we would hopefully have a core with a foundational player or two. A core that could give us a 20-25% shot for five years. Right now we are positioning ourselves to have an under 5% shot for maybe five years, and by the end of that period our best players will be past their prime, and we will have to start from scratch again.

    If Kyle and DeMar were 25 it'd be a different story. But KD and Curry are only a year older than DeMar, and both are younger than Kyle. Klay and Draymond are younger than both Kyle and DeMar, and we don't even have a third player as good as those two guys.
    This argument is just guess work. Pulling these years out of your you-know-what.

    No thanks.

    Let's say every other team decides to tank.....Will we all have a core of foundational players or two? What percentage at a shot at a title would our core give us then? lol

    Playing sports is about playing against others who may be better than you. That's the challenge. That's the point. You don't give up and come back in 7 years.....That's crazy talk.


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  6. #64
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Actually we had VC and T-Mac. It was T-Mac's decision to be "The Man" in Orlando rather than second fiddle to VC that really fucked that team.
    Goes to show how difficult it is to put together a good team. My vote is for building on what we have.

  7. #65
    Raptors Republic Starter Deems's Avatar
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    Exactly. I've asked the tankers on multiple occasions how long it would take before it would result in us being favoured to win a championship. Still waiting for a response.
    Again tanking and rebuilding are 2 different things. I've stated numerous times the scenarios in other posts of giving our young players a shot (Wright, Powell, Jakob, Pascal) which can show us what they are made of. If they do bad we get draft picks if they do well, we have potential with salary cap space.

    I'd rather take the Spurs approach. Stay competitive, and wait for the right time to use some assets to move up in the draft to nab a player you think can be special or to trade for a star when available.
    I don't see how you can compare David Robinson(#1 Draft Pick), Tim Duncan(#1 Draft Pick), Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard and Gregg Popovich to our core. They have stayed competitive as legitimate title contenders with HOF talents, we have stayed semi competitive with 2 all-stars who fail in the playoffs.

    We're not moving forward though and have no realistic avenue to do so. If people can't accept the fact we're a good regular season team with no chance at a title, they're going to be pissed off for a long time.
    Doing the same thing over and over is called insanity. Also saying we have no realistic avenue to get better without this core sounds more pessimistic than what us 'tankers' are stating.

    You believe tanking will result in us being better than the Celtics in 6-7 years ? Okay.
    It takes one true talent to make a world of difference in terms of potential to becoming a true contender. More often than not you'll find those talents in the top 5 draft picks in any given 7 year time frame.

    We aren't tied to Lowry, DeMar, Ibaka or whomever we sign this summer. They can be moved when the time is right.
    This isn't 2K17, you can't just trade a player when you like. Try shipping out a 32-33 year old PG making near max money for another 2-4 years and getting a proper investment in return in this supposed 'right time' scenario (Which probably means we aren't doing so well, which probably means Lowry isn't doing so well).


    I mean y'all can keep pounding your heads into the wall with this foundation, I for one won't be so optimistic if everyone comes back. I'm done with the rebuilding rant for the year, see y'all at draft day.

  8. #66
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    It takes one true talent to make a world of difference in terms of potential to becoming a true contender. More often than not you'll find those talents in the top 5 draft picks in any given 7 year time frame.
    One true talent doesn't get you past the conference finals. Houston has one. OKC has one. Spurs have one.

    Cavs have Lebron, Kyrie and Love and they're on the verge of being swept.

    You're rebuild fantasy makes far less sense to me (and just about everybody else) than it does to you. Dream on .
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Deems's Avatar
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    One true talent doesn't get you past the conference finals. Houston has one. OKC has one. Spurs have one.

    Cavs have Lebron, Kyrie and Love and they're on the verge of being swept.

    You're rebuild fantasy makes far less sense to me (and just about everybody else) than it does to you. Dream on .
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    It takes one true talent to make a world of difference in terms of potential to becoming a true contender. More often than not you'll find those talents in the top 5 draft picks in any given 7 year time frame.
    Keep dreaming we are a contender or have potential of becoming one.

  10. #68
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    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
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    Keep dreaming we are a contender or have potential of becoming one.
    Just a few posts ago this is what i wrote:

    We're not moving forward though and have no realistic avenue to do so. If people can't accept the fact we're a good regular season team with no chance at a title, they're going to be pissed off for a long time.
    Yet you think that means I'm "dreaming we are a contender or have potential of becoming one", I'm sorry, I thought I was pretty clear what I stated.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

  11. #69
    Raptors Republic Starter Deems's Avatar
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    We're not moving forward though and have no realistic avenue to do so. If people can't accept the fact we're a good regular season team with no chance at a title, they're going to be pissed off for a long time.
    As I stated earlier mentioning this point, saying we have no realistic avenue to get better sounds more pessimistic than what us 'tankers' are stating. From my interpretation it sounds like you have accepted the fact we have stagnated in mediocrity and are ok with it, which to me is worse than either the perspective of those who believe we can get better with this core & the those who want a fresh start. To each his own I guess.

  12. #70
    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    As I stated earlier mentioning this point, saying we have no realistic avenue to get better sounds more pessimistic than what us 'tankers' are stating. From my interpretation it sounds like you have accepted the fact we have stagnated in mediocrity and are ok with it, which to me is worse than either the perspective of those who believe we can get better with this core & the those who want a fresh start. To each his own I guess.
    To me, 50 win seasons aren't mediocrity. They're good. Mediocrity to me is barely making or missing the playoffs. It's your rebuild idea that in my opinion will yield mediocrity. I may be wrong, you may be wrong. But like you said, to each his own.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    To me, 50 win seasons aren't mediocrity. They're good. Mediocrity to me is barely making or missing the playoffs. It's your rebuild idea that in my opinion will yield mediocrity. I may be wrong, you may be wrong. But like you said, to each his own.
    Yeah, isn't the old refrain wanting to avoid the "7-11" range? Near or barely in the playoffs, with no real hope of movement in either direction in the standings. If the team is consistently a home court playoff team, it's really hard to describe that as treadmilling - they are just unlucky to live in an era of truly dominant teams, even relative to the league's history of many a dominant team.

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  15. #72
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    Do you guys think the Raptors, with LeBron, are better than the current CAV's team? Do you think we could compete with GSW if we had him?

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    Quote LJ2 wrote: View Post
    Do you guys think the Raptors, with LeBron, are better than the current CAV's team? Do you think we could compete with GSW if we had him?
    Yes, and mayyyyybe.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Yes, and mayyyyybe.
    I'd say yes, and no. Lowry and derozan are maybe equal to draymond and klay. Then they have two LeBron's. They're basically impossible to beat, unless you have 2 mvps and 2 all Stars.
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Yes, and mayyyyybe.
    I agree, which is why I think the best course of action is to maintain being competitive, try and gain more flexibility and wait until the LeBron's and George's of the world start looking for teams that give them the best chance of winning. Or there is a trade available to bring in one of those players.

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    Quote LJ2 wrote: View Post
    I agree, which is why I think the best course of action is to maintain being competitive, try and gain more flexibility and wait until the LeBron's and George's of the world start looking for teams that give them the best chance of winning. Or there is a trade available to bring in one of those players.
    Problem is adding a LeBron or George. The Raptors don't have cap room. So they'd have to trade for them. And they will get outbid every time by teams with deeper and higher value prospect and pick pools. Nevermind that I don't put George even close to LeBron's level, and don't think he'd put us in GS's range.

    It's a decent hypothetical question that simply has no bearing on the argument about team direction.

  20. #77
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I'd say yes, and no. Lowry and derozan are maybe equal to draymond and klay. Then they have two LeBron's. They're basically impossible to beat, unless you have 2 mvps and 2 all Stars.
    They don't have two LeBron's. They have zero LeBron's. I'm not saying LeBron is necessarily worth both Durant and Curry combined, but he's better than either one of them.

    I'd also peg Lowry as better than Klay/Green (though short of the MVPs obviously). DeRozan... well. He's at least comparable to Klay.

    Also, in the hypothetical, no consideration for realism is made, so I'd also peg the Raptors with far better depth. I think that brings the scales closer to level. Not level, but into the "maybe they have a chance" region.

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  22. #78
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Problem is adding a LeBron or George. The Raptors don't have cap room. So they'd have to trade for them. And they will get outbid every time by teams with deeper and higher value prospect and pick pools. Nevermind that I don't put George even close to LeBron's level, and don't think he'd put us in GS's range.

    It's a decent hypothetical question that simply has no bearing on the argument about team direction.
    You mean Raptors aren't attractive enough for players to force a trade here

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    Quote LJ2 wrote: View Post
    You mean Raptors aren't attractive enough for players to force a trade here
    Well, DeMarre was pretty attractive in that commercial.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

  24. #80
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    I still think you just keep moving forward, never know what a trade or two can do + you can't predict those at all. Trading for Tucker + Ibaka made a big impact this season, we can't predict if MU hits a homer in the next year or two.

    A) Raps have key unsigned FA's right now, we have no guarantees the roster even will be the same next season, and B) if everybody is re-signed this summer you've basically got next season then after that you have key contracts in their final year each year for the next few. This team isn't stuck anywhere, changes are a'comin one way or another anyhow. We may see another year or two with essentially this roster, 50+ wins, 2-3 playoff rounds, then it'll be something different.

    There's nothing wrong with that.

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