The Argument Against A Rebuild

[slaw]

turn into a POSSIBLE true contender. no one said its gunna be easy or linear.

You don't run a billion dollar organization on the basis that a new direction could possibly be better than the status quo.

Anyway, I think my part in this has run its course. I'm not buying into the story that this team needs to be rebuilt and you're not buying into the story that it doesn't. I understand how compelling the blow it up and play for championships narrative is but it's not one that I am sold on. I think people's views on this topic are largely established at this point, me reiterating the same case over an over again isn't convincing anyone otherwise....

[Deems]

Letting the inmates run the asylum is not something you pin on the inmates.

But it's not a prison it's a profession lol. A player should hold a coach accountable in a respectful way as much as a coach should hold the team accountable; constructive conversations are important. In any profession, it's always critical to have feedback from any and all of your staff. And it shouldn't take someone else to tell you to hustle on defense / do your job at your fullest; these are grown men we are talking about.

[BeLikeMike]

I understand this winning thing is new to us and we'd like to keep it going...but besides that point, what validates against having a complete rebuild? I'm 110% in for a rebuild but I feel like Masai and company aren't. So to calm my pessimistic thoughts, could y'all please make a case of this so called 'continuity' with the current stock of talent we have?

So am I. Lebron makes $31 mil, DD makes $26 and Lowry wants a max contract @ $30 mil. Now ask yourself if you would trade DD and KLow for Lebron. I would in a heartbeat.

Masaii needs to position the Raptors to peak in the post Lebron era. He is just too good and makes the other guys better than they deserve to be. You have to know when you're beat. Do you really want a 36 year old Lowry on a max contract in 5 years when Lebron will hopefully be gone.

Basketball is only team sport when one guy can be the difference. There are 5 guys on the floor and one guy can play 89-90% of the game. That is not true in Hockey, Baseball, Football or Soccer.

I grew up watching Bobby Orr play. If he could have been on the ice for 90% of the game, Boston would have never lost. He was just so much better than anyone else.

[Dr Hannibal Lecter]

Not sure I can argue with this..other teams are just getting better and better,boston,philly and so on..raps are still stuck from Colangelo Era,let's b honest..Demar was drafted by colangelo,Lowry was got in trade and almost traded 2 knicks,the other pieces are from trades and signings,the drafting has been garbage..I'm not impressed,will c what happens this off season..

[JawsGT]

While I agree a couple tweaks and a new coach could push this team over the edge, however I don't see the financial flexibility to make this happen. As much magic Masai can have, you're not moving Demarre Carroll for a legitimate role player unless you pair him with a 1st rounder. We don't have the money to sign legitimate FA as well. If the whole core is back we're rolling the dice on a 32 year old who's prone to injury and slumps and 27 year old Ibaka who doesn't appear to play like a 27 year old.

If you truly believe the bold, then you should have no issue with sacrificing a single first rounder to move Carroll, no? And if that's not enough, then what other tweaks do you think are necessary, outside of the coach of course?

[NoPropsneeded]

I agree the only way for this team to become significantly better is to completely revamp the system and bring in a new coach. Also as for the starting SF spot, I wonder what Denver would want for Chandler he'd be really good fit here. Carroll + Cojo + Nogueira/2018 2nd rounder?

[inthepaint]

You don't tear down a team that is in the top 4 of the conference, has won more games than any other eastern conference team in the last 4 seasons, and is a top 5-6 team in the NBA. You just don't. No one does. Anyone who did would not have a job. You tear down teams that are stuck outside the playoffs or teams that are really, really old and set to decline significantly. The reason is simple: it's really damn hard to have success in the NBA. Even a great rebuild strategy accompanied by a solid implementation is hugely dependent on luck. That's why you only do it when you have no other choice.

This team is not in the spot of its life cycle where a rebuild is required. It will be one day, but not yet.

Bingo. Couldn't have said it better. We have the best team in franchise history right now, which hardly had the chance to play together for long, and we want to blow it up because we didn't make it to the ECF twice in a row.

I mean, sure I can see the constraints going forward, but it's like, ok I have a really nice house but really want a pool. Right away. It'd be tricky to add one, but I could try. Nah, I think I'll just sell my house and use all the proceeds to buy lottery tickets. With that many tickets, I'm bound to win enough to buy my house back, plus the pool right? I don't necessarily oppose the principle of rebuilding, it's so tempting to start fresh, I just think it's so soon for that. Feels like we just got here.

By the way the Cavs ( the only team that managed to beat us over the past two years in the playoffs), just beat the number 1 seed Boston, in Boston, by 44 points. Looks like they're headed for another sweep with the next two games being in Cleveland. Maybe after this Boston will decide to tank too? Maybe everyone tanking in the East till LeBron retires might be the best strategy for every team then. I don't know man, there's gotta be a better way.

Change the coach, keep the core, move ineffective role players for high end 3pt-shooters, and give it another go. Easier said then done, I know, but that's what good GM's get the big bucks for. Good scouting, careful development, good asset management. I still think we're the 2nd best team in the East all-in-all, especially after seeing Boston today. The cavs are the oldest team in the league right now(tied with the Clippers). They're bound to decline, like every one is eventually. Things change. I guess the question becomes, when the time comes to strike them, which kind of team we want to have in our hands: mid-tanking/Possibly maybe moving up, or holding the fort at already 2nd in the east?

I sure see the argument for blowing up now, I see there's a lot of constraints, but I'd like to see what this group can do with a new coach and with good shooters from deep of our own.

[S.R.]

Yeah, this is so weird. Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective, but look at how few teams actually do it. Frankly we spend way more time discussing it than it's worth.

Teams keep building and trying to move forward from the place they're currently at. You might blow it up if you're clearly at the end of a roster cycle and have run into limited options + flexibility with an underwhelming product on the floor, basically when a franchise has nothing to lose because they suck anyway and have run out of ways to get better.

Houston isn't going to beat GS, they aren't blowing it up. The Spurs aren't good enough, they aren't blowing it up - reportedly they're trying to figure out how to get Chris Paul. The Wizards and Celtics aren't blowing it up. The Clippers might shake things up because they're at risk of losing FA's for nothing. OKC didn't blow it up when they lost Durant. Utah didn't blow it up post-Deron. Memphis has refused to tear it down. Miami is still trying to move forward post-Lebron. Chicago and Indiana have spent several years trying to make Butler/George teams work. Etc. etc. etc.

All of those teams, except for the Spurs, haven't been able to win a championship and most of them haven't even been able to make a Finals with the rosters/core players they have. All of them are working at trying to be better. All of them have primarily been winning/playoff teams. The Raptors right now are one of these teams, a competitive, winning team that is not a legit contender and is trying to figure out how to get there.

Honestly as fans I think we've got to figure out how to have fun armchair discussions about superstars and championships while still enjoying having one of the top teams in the entire NBA for one of the first times in this team's largely underwhelming history, without just being chronically pissed because our team isn't better than Lebron yet. The answer isn't as binary as "demand championships or be a compromising loser happy with not winning" imho. I want fucking championships too, I've been disappointed by the last 2 Cleveland series too, but dammit I also want to enjoy actually watching a 50+ win playoff team all year long, even if we end up being one of the 29 teams that does not win the championship.

Anyway that's a bit of a rant.

[golden]

Yeah, this is so weird. Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective, but look at how few teams actually do it. Frankly we spend way more time discussing it than it's worth.

Teams keep building and trying to move forward from the place they're currently at. You might blow it up if you're clearly at the end of a roster cycle and have run into limited options + flexibility with an underwhelming product on the floor, basically when a franchise has nothing to lose because they suck anyway and have run out of ways to get better.

Houston isn't going to beat GS, they aren't blowing it up. The Spurs aren't good enough, they aren't blowing it up - reportedly they're trying to figure out how to get Chris Paul. The Wizards and Celtics aren't blowing it up. The Clippers might shake things up because they're at risk of losing FA's for nothing. OKC didn't blow it up when they lost Durant. Utah didn't blow it up post-Deron. Memphis has refused to tear it down. Miami is still trying to move forward post-Lebron. Chicago and Indiana have spent several years trying to make Butler/George teams work. Etc. etc. etc.

All of those teams, except for the Spurs, haven't been able to win a championship and most of them haven't even been able to make a Finals with the rosters/core players they have. All of them are working at trying to be better. All of them have primarily been winning/playoff teams. The Raptors right now are one of these teams, a competitive, winning team that is not a legit contender and is trying to figure out how to get there.

Honestly as fans I think we've got to figure out how to have fun armchair discussions about superstars and championships while still enjoying having one of the top teams in the entire NBA for one of the first times in this team's largely underwhelming history, without just being chronically pissed because our team isn't better than Lebron yet. The answer isn't as binary as "demand championships or be a compromising loser happy with not winning" imho. I want fucking championships too, I've been disappointed by the last 2 Cleveland series too, but dammit I also want to enjoy actually watching a 50+ win playoff team all year long, even if we end up being one of the 29 teams that does not win the championship.

Anyway that's a bit of a rant.

Yeah, this "guarantee us a chip or blow-it-up until Lebron retires" sentiment seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon of the modern day sports fan. It's like the Utah Jazz should have broken up Stockton and Malone during the Jordan era and tanked for Kobe or Shaq. Or the Rockets should have blown up the Olajuwon teams. Or Barkley and Ewing would have been better served by teaming up during MJ's run.

So basically the idea is that the NBA should have 2 teams (GSW & Cavs) that compete for the championship each year and then the other 28 teams should be trying to lose as much as possible to draft the next Lebron.

[3inthekeon]

Yeah, this is so weird. Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective, but look at how few teams actually do it..

So few teams do it, because "Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective" when those fans don't shell out for season tickets.

[suspenders]

Yeah, this is so weird. Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective, but look at how few teams actually do it. Frankly we spend way more time discussing it than it's worth.

Teams keep building and trying to move forward from the place they're currently at. You might blow it up if you're clearly at the end of a roster cycle and have run into limited options + flexibility with an underwhelming product on the floor, basically when a franchise has nothing to lose because they suck anyway and have run out of ways to get better.

Houston isn't going to beat GS, they aren't blowing it up. The Spurs aren't good enough, they aren't blowing it up - reportedly they're trying to figure out how to get Chris Paul. The Wizards and Celtics aren't blowing it up. The Clippers might shake things up because they're at risk of losing FA's for nothing. OKC didn't blow it up when they lost Durant. Utah didn't blow it up post-Deron. Memphis has refused to tear it down. Miami is still trying to move forward post-Lebron. Chicago and Indiana have spent several years trying to make Butler/George teams work. Etc. etc. etc.

All of those teams, except for the Spurs, haven't been able to win a championship and most of them haven't even been able to make a Finals with the rosters/core players they have. All of them are working at trying to be better. All of them have primarily been winning/playoff teams. The Raptors right now are one of these teams, a competitive, winning team that is not a legit contender and is trying to figure out how to get there.

Honestly as fans I think we've got to figure out how to have fun armchair discussions about superstars and championships while still enjoying having one of the top teams in the entire NBA for one of the first times in this team's largely underwhelming history, without just being chronically pissed because our team isn't better than Lebron yet. The answer isn't as binary as "demand championships or be a compromising loser happy with not winning" imho. I want fucking championships too, I've been disappointed by the last 2 Cleveland series too, but dammit I also want to enjoy actually watching a 50+ win playoff team all year long, even if we end up being one of the 29 teams that does not win the championship.

Anyway that's a bit of a rant.

Great post.

[GLF]

Yeah, this is so weird. Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective, but look at how few teams actually do it. Frankly we spend way more time discussing it than it's worth.

Teams keep building and trying to move forward from the place they're currently at. You might blow it up if you're clearly at the end of a roster cycle and have run into limited options + flexibility with an underwhelming product on the floor, basically when a franchise has nothing to lose because they suck anyway and have run out of ways to get better.

Houston isn't going to beat GS, they aren't blowing it up. The Spurs aren't good enough, they aren't blowing it up - reportedly they're trying to figure out how to get Chris Paul. The Wizards and Celtics aren't blowing it up. The Clippers might shake things up because they're at risk of losing FA's for nothing. OKC didn't blow it up when they lost Durant. Utah didn't blow it up post-Deron. Memphis has refused to tear it down. Miami is still trying to move forward post-Lebron. Chicago and Indiana have spent several years trying to make Butler/George teams work. Etc. etc. etc.

All of those teams, except for the Spurs, haven't been able to win a championship and most of them haven't even been able to make a Finals with the rosters/core players they have. All of them are working at trying to be better. All of them have primarily been winning/playoff teams. The Raptors right now are one of these teams, a competitive, winning team that is not a legit contender and is trying to figure out how to get there.

Honestly as fans I think we've got to figure out how to have fun armchair discussions about superstars and championships while still enjoying having one of the top teams in the entire NBA for one of the first times in this team's largely underwhelming history, without just being chronically pissed because our team isn't better than Lebron yet. The answer isn't as binary as "demand championships or be a compromising loser happy with not winning" imho. I want fucking championships too, I've been disappointed by the last 2 Cleveland series too, but dammit I also want to enjoy actually watching a 50+ win playoff team all year long, even if we end up being one of the 29 teams that does not win the championship.

Anyway that's a bit of a rant.

I am known to be negative but this was an amazing post. As pessimistic as I am I don't even believe we should blow it up. I'm tired of watching us be bad and going into a season with no expectations or excitement because we are suppose to lose. I cannot take another 10 years of that. As much as I want us to win a championship and I want us to get rid of Casey and I want us to at LEAST be more competitive with Cleveland the reality is we aren't the only team who still isn't close to beating Cleveland or Golden State. It's literally those two teams and then a big gap before the next best team is even in sight. We must get better but I don't think tanking is the answer either. Thank you for this post

[LJ2]

Great post indeed S.R.

Was reading the potential of Chris Paul to Spurs article on ESPN and was thinking I could totally see it happening. It's a lot of money he wold be leaving on the table if he decided to go to the Spurs, but he's made a lot of money already and it's not like he's going to be playing for peanuts. He's such a competitor though and he has to see a run with the Spurs as the best option to winning a championship. Clippers were already chasing Warriors and Spurs and seemingly the Rockets surpassed them this season as well.

Then as it relates to the Raptors I was thinking that perhaps the positive of constantly being a good, 50+ win team is that it attracts players like CP3 whom may not be in their prime but still have what it takes to compete at a high level. Players whom have made their money already and want to play for a shot to win a championship. Could this be how the Raptors not only survive, but thrive in the NBA?

[slaw]

Honestly as fans I think we've got to figure out how to have fun armchair discussions about superstars and championships while still enjoying having one of the top teams in the entire NBA for one of the first times in this team's largely underwhelming history, without just being chronically pissed because our team isn't better than Lebron yet. The answer isn't as binary as "demand championships or be a compromising loser happy with not winning" imho. I want fucking championships too, I've been disappointed by the last 2 Cleveland series too, but dammit I also want to enjoy actually watching a 50+ win playoff team all year long, even if we end up being one of the 29 teams that does not win the championship

In my "you kids get off my lawn" - I think a lot of this is as a broader change in the way we talk about sports and consume sports entertainment as fans. One of my frustrations with a lot of the fan forums/blogs/etc. is that they don't really talk about the actual sport or even the game-to-game stuff very much. A huge swath of space is taken up by statistics but, also, the business of sport and franchises (into which I would throw the tanking/GMing discussions).

One of the negative sides to this, in my view, is that many fans are starting to lose the love of the game and the sport and the team and the players in lieu of endless discussions of statistical minutiae and pointless arguments over business discussions that have little to nothing to do with actually being a fan. This can be enjoyable in and of itself for a time but I do think that over a long enough period it starts to suck the joy of actually being a fan out of you.

I was very much in this category by the late BC years and my love of the team and the sport was almost non-existent, though I dutifully still watched games and kept a few tickets. My views reset largely on the back of attending a couple of Raps and Jays playoff games the last couple of years and realizing how much I missed being a generic fan cheering for a team.

[golden]

In my "you kids get off my lawn" - I think a lot of this is as a broader change in the way we talk about sports and consume sports entertainment as fans. One of my frustrations with a lot of the fan forums/blogs/etc. is that they don't really talk about the actual sport or even the game-to-game stuff very much. A huge swath of space is taken up by statistics but, also, the business of sport and franchises (into which I would throw the tanking/GMing discussions).

One of the negative sides to this, in my view, is that many fans are starting to lose the love of the game and the sport and the team and the players in lieu of endless discussions of statistical minutiae and pointless arguments over business discussions that have little to nothing to do with actually being a fan. This can be enjoyable in and of itself for a time but I do think that over a long enough period it starts to suck the joy of actually being a fan out of you.

I was very much in this category by the late BC years and my love of the team and the sport was almost non-existent, though I dutifully still watched games and kept a few tickets. My views reset largely on the back of attending a couple of Raps and Jays playoff games the last couple of years and realizing how much I missed being a generic fan cheering for a team.

I don't think we can totally blame the fans. In this era of monetizing our eyeballs, fans are being manipulated like never before. Like always, just follow the money - there's just way too much money up for grabs. I think we can split the blame between: fans, players, agents, owners, the league, sports media, sponsors, merchandise, etc... It's a fairly recent phenomenon where players started to think of themselves as 'brands' and 'corporations'. I remember being somewhat nauseated by those type of statements being made by Bosh as justification for getting TF out of Toronto into a better market and a winning situation..... 'just building my brand, like Lebron'. And the way players (and their agents) build that brand is by getting global exposure from being in the Finals.

It's like people don't care anymore how to you got there - winning cures all. Bosh-Lebron-Wade was really a watershed moment. Never before had the best player in his prime teamed up with 2 other superstars in their prime to engineer a championship team by their own pro-active choice, aka, the Scheme Team. All within the rules, but it just didn't feel right, but it's become totally accepted, except by old school guys like Jordan, Bird, Barkley, Magic, etc.... Once Durant gets his ring, a lot of people will say this vindicates the fact that he made the right decision leaving OKC. I don't get that logic at all.

The only blame I'd put on the fans is allowing ourselves to be manipulated to the point of accepting "the ends justifies the means" when valuing the legacy of those players. Some fans in this era have forgotten that it is indeed possible to lose with honor and win with shame.