Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 37 of 37

Thread: The Argument Against A Rebuild

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, ON
    Posts
    10,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    I think everyone understands we're a top 5ish team in the regular season, but can we justify going into the luxury tax for players that have habitually under performed when it matters most? As much blame as we can put on Casey for our playoff faltering, it's the players that need to and had to step-up, and they didn't.

    Sure we have a young team, but as stated they are riding the pine; young assets cannot be grown there. By throwing them in the fire and seeing what they are made of is. We can't say we have a 'young' bench either; CJo, PP and TRoss we're the major contributors off the bench with Norman only coming in half way through the season and half way through the playoffs. I like to see Delon, Jakob, Pascal and Bruno grow and see what they got, but if we retain our core how is that possible?

    We say we need 3 point shooters, with what money? We have an MLE sure, what kind of 3 point marksman can we get for Jared Sullinger money? Never mind the fact Norman is off the books next year. Also Masai is not trading Demarre for a valuable asset, theres only so many times you can fool the league with your savvy trades. JV is tradeable, but then Ibaka would slide to the 5 where he struggled in the playoffs.

    If we buy in, that's 3-5 years of this team. There's no way around the fact there won't be major growth, the starting 5 are all in their primes (except JV maybe). If we buy in, this is what we got; the Clippers of the East. A facade of a contender.
    I'm not sure I buy that every player on the team is just naturally unable to play in the playoffs. Seems like a stretch compared to a pretty simple explanation like "the system that everyone has hated for years is actually crap, shock of all shocks."

  2. Like Puffer liked this post
  3. #22
    Raptors Republic Rookie Deems's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure I buy that every player on the team is just naturally unable to play in the playoffs. Seems like a stretch compared to a pretty simple explanation like "the system that everyone has hated for years is actually crap, shock of all shocks."
    The major cogs haven't. I don't think you can say with a straight face DeMar and Kyle have had one good series in these 4 years.

  4. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar JimiCliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    4,863
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure I buy that every player on the team is just naturally unable to play in the playoffs. Seems like a stretch compared to a pretty simple explanation like "the system that everyone has hated for years is actually crap, shock of all shocks."
    It's been pretty obvious (to me, anyways) since he was a rookie that Demar just doesn't have that 'it' factor that true stars have, of being able to find a new level to their game in clutch moments. Over the past couple of years, he's surprised me with his continued growth, and so I've softened on my original stance, but I still believe that his poor playoff showings were mostly his own fault, and had little to do with the system.

    As for Lowry, he's been bricking clutch free throws, regular season and playoffs, since he got here. He certainly doesn't make love to pressure.
    "Stop eating your sushi."
    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
    - Jack Armstrong

  5. #24
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, ON
    Posts
    10,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    The major cogs haven't. I don't think you can say with a straight face DeMar and Kyle have had one good series in these 4 years.
    Of course not. But they've been in this system all 4 years, so I don't see how that contradicts my point.

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,472
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    If we buy in, that's 3-5 years of this team. There's no way around the fact there won't be major growth, the starting 5 are all in their primes (except JV maybe). If we buy in, this is what we got; the Clippers of the East. A facade of a contender
    Maybe, but the alternative is not: a) tear down, b) rebuild, c) turn into true, elite contending team, d) multiple championships.

    It's more like: a) tear down, b) rebuild c) turn into [____], d) ???????????.

  7. Like SkywalkerAC liked this post
  8. #26
    Raptors Republic Rookie Deems's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    It's been pretty obvious (to me, anyways) since he was a rookie that Demar just doesn't have that 'it' factor that true stars have, of being able to find a new level to their game in clutch moments. Over the past couple of years, he's surprised me with his continued growth, and so I've softened on my original stance, but I still believe that his poor playoff showings were mostly his own fault, and had little to do with the system.

    As for Lowry, he's been bricking clutch free throws, regular season and playoffs, since he got here. He certainly doesn't make love to pressure.
    It's also kinda hard to understand how your team is better when your star(derozan) is off the floor rather than on.

  9. #27
    Raptors Republic Rookie Deems's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Maybe, but the alternative is not: a) tear down, b) rebuild, c) turn into true, elite contending team, d) multiple championships.

    It's more like: a) tear down, b) rebuild c) turn into [____], d) ???????????.
    turn into a POSSIBLE true contender. no one said its gunna be easy or linear.

  10. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar JimiCliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    4,863
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    It's been pretty obvious (to me, anyways) since he was a rookie that Demar just doesn't have that 'it' factor that true stars have, of being able to find a new level to their game in clutch moments.
    I should add: his dunk at the end of game 6 against the Bucks was the very first time I saw that 'it' factor from him.
    "Stop eating your sushi."
    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
    - Jack Armstrong

  11. #29
    Raptors Republic Rookie Deems's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Of course not. But they've been in this system all 4 years, so I don't see how that contradicts my point.
    Well to add to my point, as a leader of a team wouldn't you take the responsibility in your hands to at least put your 2 cents in into changing the system? I'm not saying overthrow the coach but if something has not been working for 4 years and you're the captain of the ship you should take the initiative to start the conversation.

    You don't think DeMar and Kyle like the ball in their hands as much as possible? Also why does it take PJ Tucker, a guy who comes in halfway through the season to call out the lack of accountability for DeMar's play? I think it goes beyond a system at this point.

  12. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, ON
    Posts
    10,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    Well to add to my point, as a leader of a team wouldn't you take the responsibility in your hands to at least put your 2 cents in into changing the system? I'm not saying overthrow the coach but if something has not been working for 4 years and you're the captain of the ship you should take the initiative to start the conversation.

    You don't think DeMar and Kyle like the ball in their hands as much as possible? Also why does it take PJ Tucker, a guy who comes in halfway through the season to call out the lack of accountability for DeMar's play? I think it goes beyond a system at this point.
    Letting the inmates run the asylum is not something you pin on the inmates.

  13. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,472
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    turn into a POSSIBLE true contender. no one said its gunna be easy or linear.
    You don't run a billion dollar organization on the basis that a new direction could possibly be better than the status quo.

    Anyway, I think my part in this has run its course. I'm not buying into the story that this team needs to be rebuilt and you're not buying into the story that it doesn't. I understand how compelling the blow it up and play for championships narrative is but it's not one that I am sold on. I think people's views on this topic are largely established at this point, me reiterating the same case over an over again isn't convincing anyone otherwise....

  14. Like SkywalkerAC liked this post
  15. #32
    Raptors Republic Rookie Deems's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Letting the inmates run the asylum is not something you pin on the inmates.
    But it's not a prison it's a profession lol. A player should hold a coach accountable in a respectful way as much as a coach should hold the team accountable; constructive conversations are important. In any profession, it's always critical to have feedback from any and all of your staff. And it shouldn't take someone else to tell you to hustle on defense / do your job at your fullest; these are grown men we are talking about.

  16. #33
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    I understand this winning thing is new to us and we'd like to keep it going...but besides that point, what validates against having a complete rebuild? I'm 110% in for a rebuild but I feel like Masai and company aren't. So to calm my pessimistic thoughts, could y'all please make a case of this so called 'continuity' with the current stock of talent we have?
    So am I. Lebron makes $31 mil, DD makes $26 and Lowry wants a max contract @ $30 mil. Now ask yourself if you would trade DD and KLow for Lebron. I would in a heartbeat.

    Masaii needs to position the Raptors to peak in the post Lebron era. He is just too good and makes the other guys better than they deserve to be. You have to know when you're beat. Do you really want a 36 year old Lowry on a max contract in 5 years when Lebron will hopefully be gone.

    Basketball is only team sport when one guy can be the difference. There are 5 guys on the floor and one guy can play 89-90% of the game. That is not true in Hockey, Baseball, Football or Soccer.

    I grew up watching Bobby Orr play. If he could have been on the ice for 90% of the game, Boston would have never lost. He was just so much better than anyone else.

  17. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter Dr Hannibal Lecter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    712
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Not sure I can argue with this..other teams are just getting better and better,boston,philly and so on..raps are still stuck from Colangelo Era,let's b honest..Demar was drafted by colangelo,Lowry was got in trade and almost traded 2 knicks,the other pieces are from trades and signings,the drafting has been garbage..I'm not impressed,will c what happens this off season..
    "Never apologize for coming to me. Office hours are for patients.
    My kitchen is always open to friends"

  18. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,403
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Deems wrote: View Post
    While I agree a couple tweaks and a new coach could push this team over the edge, however I don't see the financial flexibility to make this happen. As much magic Masai can have, you're not moving Demarre Carroll for a legitimate role player unless you pair him with a 1st rounder. We don't have the money to sign legitimate FA as well. If the whole core is back we're rolling the dice on a 32 year old who's prone to injury and slumps and 27 year old Ibaka who doesn't appear to play like a 27 year old.
    If you truly believe the bold, then you should have no issue with sacrificing a single first rounder to move Carroll, no? And if that's not enough, then what other tweaks do you think are necessary, outside of the coach of course?

  19. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    6,445
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I agree the only way for this team to become significantly better is to completely revamp the system and bring in a new coach. Also as for the starting SF spot, I wonder what Denver would want for Chandler he'd be really good fit here. Carroll + Cojo + Nogueira/2018 2nd rounder?

  20. #37
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    You don't tear down a team that is in the top 4 of the conference, has won more games than any other eastern conference team in the last 4 seasons, and is a top 5-6 team in the NBA. You just don't. No one does. Anyone who did would not have a job. You tear down teams that are stuck outside the playoffs or teams that are really, really old and set to decline significantly. The reason is simple: it's really damn hard to have success in the NBA. Even a great rebuild strategy accompanied by a solid implementation is hugely dependent on luck. That's why you only do it when you have no other choice.

    This team is not in the spot of its life cycle where a rebuild is required. It will be one day, but not yet.
    Bingo. Couldn't have said it better. We have the best team in franchise history right now, which hardly had the chance to play together for long, and we want to blow it up because we didn't make it to the ECF twice in a row.

    I mean, sure I can see the constraints going forward, but it's like, ok I have a really nice house but really want a pool. Right away. It'd be tricky to add one, but I could try. Nah, I think I'll just sell my house and use all the proceeds to buy lottery tickets. With that many tickets, I'm bound to win enough to buy my house back, plus the pool right? I don't necessarily oppose the principle of rebuilding, it's so tempting to start fresh, I just think it's so soon for that. Feels like we just got here.

    By the way the Cavs ( the only team that managed to beat us over the past two years in the playoffs), just beat the number 1 seed Boston, in Boston, by 44 points. Looks like they're headed for another sweep with the next two games being in Cleveland. Maybe after this Boston will decide to tank too? Maybe everyone tanking in the East till LeBron retires might be the best strategy for every team then. I don't know man, there's gotta be a better way.

    Change the coach, keep the core, move ineffective role players for high end 3pt-shooters, and give it another go. Easier said then done, I know, but that's what good GM's get the big bucks for. Good scouting, careful development, good asset management. I still think we're the 2nd best team in the East all-in-all, especially after seeing Boston today. The cavs are the oldest team in the league right now(tied with the Clippers). They're bound to decline, like every one is eventually. Things change. I guess the question becomes, when the time comes to strike them, which kind of team we want to have in our hands: mid-tanking/Possibly maybe moving up, or holding the fort at already 2nd in the east?

    I sure see the argument for blowing up now, I see there's a lot of constraints, but I'd like to see what this group can do with a new coach and with good shooters from deep of our own.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •