The Argument Against A Rebuild

[CalgaryRapsFan]

In response to the great posts from slaw and golden above, I think the biggest game changers in pro sports have been modern free agency and salary caps. Gone are the days when you can loyally watch a group of young players rise through the ranks and develop into a dynasty together, loyally remaining with the team the began with.

It's hard to watch sports with the same innocent joy I had as a kid when the players let money and agents determine where they'll play next, and the roster of every team in every major sports league has become a revolving door. It's just the way that professional sports work now, so fans have become just as business-like (cold, calculated and jaded) rooting for their team as players are playing and managers are managing.

[3inthekeon]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here (although I agree with much of what has been said,

Kevin Durant showed the same amount of loyalty to the Thunder as the Thunder showed to James Harden.

Many fans have always been guilty of branding players as "losers" (or at least "not winners"), no matter how good they were because they didn't win it all. Malone/Stockton, Dan Marino, Ted Williams/Ernie Banks.

[Odin]

Yeah, this is so weird. Tanking is so popular from a fan perspective, but look at how few teams actually do it. Frankly we spend way more time discussing it than it's worth.

Teams keep building and trying to move forward from the place they're currently at. You might blow it up if you're clearly at the end of a roster cycle and have run into limited options + flexibility with an underwhelming product on the floor, basically when a franchise has nothing to lose because they suck anyway and have run out of ways to get better.

Houston isn't going to beat GS, they aren't blowing it up. The Spurs aren't good enough, they aren't blowing it up - reportedly they're trying to figure out how to get Chris Paul. The Wizards and Celtics aren't blowing it up. The Clippers might shake things up because they're at risk of losing FA's for nothing. OKC didn't blow it up when they lost Durant. Utah didn't blow it up post-Deron. Memphis has refused to tear it down. Miami is still trying to move forward post-Lebron. Chicago and Indiana have spent several years trying to make Butler/George teams work. Etc. etc. etc.

All of those teams, except for the Spurs, haven't been able to win a championship and most of them haven't even been able to make a Finals with the rosters/core players they have. All of them are working at trying to be better. All of them have primarily been winning/playoff teams. The Raptors right now are one of these teams, a competitive, winning team that is not a legit contender and is trying to figure out how to get there.

Honestly as fans I think we've got to figure out how to have fun armchair discussions about superstars and championships while still enjoying having one of the top teams in the entire NBA for one of the first times in this team's largely underwhelming history, without just being chronically pissed because our team isn't better than Lebron yet. The answer isn't as binary as "demand championships or be a compromising loser happy with not winning" imho. I want fucking championships too, I've been disappointed by the last 2 Cleveland series too, but dammit I also want to enjoy actually watching a 50+ win playoff team all year long, even if we end up being one of the 29 teams that does not win the championship.

Anyway that's a bit of a rant.

I think you raise solid points in your post....but I'm going to play devil's advocate in just a second.

First, though, I think so many fans want to 'blow this up' due to the style of play. Even the top brass have come to the conclusion of many casual and hardcore fans.

But to play devil's advocate to your points about the specific teams:
Houston has Harden
The Spurs are the envy of every professional sport team and have won with many incarnations and styles of play. They have one of the greatest coaches in NBA history. They also have an MVP candidate.
The Wizards are capped out - their greatest hurdle has been giving out terrible contracts every time they have a $1 of cap space - How does Ernie Grunfeld manage to escape firing each year?
The Celtics are the envy of every team's fans minus Cleveland and Golden State. Solid players, great coach, winning team, #1 pick this year, and a shot at #1 next year...while still winning all because Ainge recognized it was hold on for another season or two or chop years off a rebuild being proactive.
OKC were looking to blow it up if Westbrook didn't extend - he did and he carried the team making history - and he is another MVP candidate.
Utah didn't blow it up due to collecting assets from Brooklyn on Williams...but they still missed the playoffs and drafted 12th. Maybe they should have? But getting the Knicks 2010 lottery pick from a trade with Phoenix and having Brooklyn already tanking for them (getting pick #3) allowed them to have best of both worlds when building - competing and playing the lottery at the same time.
Memphis is tough to counter. They have been following their motto - grind.
Chicago and Indiana are not what I would aspire to be, personally, but they have built competitive teams through late lottery and late first round picks.


At some point a team will always need to rebuild or retool or whatever. I think the teams that are proactive and willingly make that choice have more success than a team that fights tooth and nail to compete at all costs. The desire to compete now often, not always but often, leads to poor long term decisions. A lot of the teams you have listed have hit homeruns on late lottery or first round draft picks (Spurs at 15, Utah at 27, Chicago at 30, Indiana 10 and 11) which can drastically alter the course of a franchise.


The writing is on the wall for this edition of the Raptors. They have no financial flexibility from here on out. Key pieces will be traded otherwise the team is going to be the most expensive in NBA history. The engine of the team is constantly banged up come playoffs and on the wrong side of 30 looking for $200M.

I hope Masai goes the route of Boston and is able to maximize return for Lowry (after signing to big extension) from another team's desperation (Philly being prime candidate).

[Puffer]

...The only blame I'd put on the fans is allowing ourselves to be manipulated to the point of accepting "the ends justifies the means" when valuing the legacy of those players. Some fans in this era have forgotten that it is indeed possible to lose with honor and win with shame.

I agree with this. How often do you hear "What has he won" as some kind of an argument to minimize a players talents. "He couldn't put the team on his back and 'will' them to win." Stupid arguments both of them.

When players read or hear those kind of comments, I am sure it makes an impression. As if failing to be on the one of thirty teams a year that actually wins a championship negates you as a player.

Not many people have their careers summed up by someone saying "Nice guy and a wizard at his job, but he never made it to CEO or owned a majority share in the company."

[Scraptor]

The team that swept us by an average of 15 points per game is about to get swept in the Finals. That should illustrate how far away we are.

Luke Walton of the Lakers:

“I said ‘if there's a time to be rebuilding, this is the time to do it,’” Walton said on The Full 48 Podcast with Bleacher Report’s Howard Beck. “The Warriors don't look like they're going anywhere for a while. They're pretty darn good right now.”

If our team had cap space or a treasure chest of assets I think it would be easier to toss out the idea of a rebuild. But being capped out means there's no runway for improvement. Our moves will likely be lateral at best, unless Masai can fleece someone.

Tough decisions ahead.

[LJ2]

Should the Cavs blow it up as well?

[Deems]

I think the Warriors have proved here why we should rebuild(NOT TANKING!! THIS AINT THE SAME CONCEPT). The team that has destroyed the East is being destroyed by them. If you think we have room for the level of improvement needed to even be in the same breath as Cleveland, let alone Warriors...then hand me whatever you're smoking lol.

[3inthekeon]

I think the Warriors have proved here why we should rebuild(NOT TANKING!! THIS AINT THE SAME CONCEPT). The team that has destroyed the East is being destroyed by them. If you think we have room for the level of improvement needed to even be in the same breath as Cleveland, let alone Warriors...then hand me whatever you're smoking lol.

And what exactly would this rebuild accomplish? It's a given nothing we do will put us above the Warriors or Cavs level. But it would take multiple miracles for your rebuild to get us any closer to a championship than we are now.

[Puffer]

And what exactly would this rebuild accomplish? It's a given nothing we do will put us above the Warriors or Cavs level. But it would take multiple miracles for your rebuild to get us any closer to a championship than we are now.

How many miracle draft picks are possible in your average tank scenario? And how many would it take to get to Warrior or Caves level?

[3inthekeon]

How many miracle draft picks are possible in your average tank scenario? And how many would it take to get to Warrior or Caves level?

Exactly. I've asked the tankers on multiple occasions how long it would take before it would result in us being favoured to win a championship. Still waiting for a response. As for the rebuild without a tank route, it would probably just result in a team that's different, but no better and more likely worse..

[Scraptor]

Should the Cavs blow it up as well?

This kind of hyperbole is why we can't have a productive discussion.

The crux of the issue is whether we have true championship-level talent as the foundation for this roster. The Cavs have it. They won last year. They can tweak and change coaches and hope the Warriors lose a key player or something.

Does anyone think, after adding Ibaka and Tucker, and getting swept, that we have that kind of foundation? I hoped we did. I thought we might push the Cavs to seven or even win.

But the evidence shows that that was just wishful thinking. And if we can't compete with the Cavs, how can we compete with the Warriors?

I'm not saying we definitely must rebuild. But if we are moving forward we can't just add to a flawed foundation.

[3inthekeon]

This kind of hyperbole is why we can't have a productive discussion.

The crux of the issue is whether we have true championship-level talent as the foundation for this roster. The Cavs have it. They won last year. They can tweak and change coaches and hope the Warriors lose a key player or something.

Does anyone think, after adding Ibaka and Tucker, and getting swept, that we have that kind of foundation? I hoped we did. I thought we might push the Cavs to seven or even win.

But the evidence shows that that was just wishful thinking. And if we can't compete with the Cavs, how can we compete with the Warriors?

I'm not saying we definitely must rebuild. But if we are moving forward we can't just add to a flawed foundation.

We're not moving forward though and have no realistic avenue to do so. If people can't accept the fact we're a good regular season team with no chance at a title, they're going to be pissed off for a long time.

[Scraptor]

Exactly. I've asked the tankers on multiple occasions how long it would take before it would result in us being favoured to win a championship. Still waiting for a response. As for the rebuild without a tank route, it would probably just result in a team that's different, but no better and more likely worse..

Probably 6-7 years. You'd need 3-4 years of pick accumulation and growing. Then a couple years of playoff experience.

But we would hopefully have a core with a foundational player or two. A core that could give us a 20-25% shot for five years. Right now we are positioning ourselves to have an under 5% shot for maybe five years, and by the end of that period our best players will be past their prime, and we will have to start from scratch again.

If Kyle and DeMar were 25 it'd be a different story. But KD and Curry are only a year older than DeMar, and both are younger than Kyle. Klay and Draymond are younger than both Kyle and DeMar, and we don't even have a third player as good as those two guys.

[3inthekeon]

Probably 6-7 years. You'd need 3-4 years of pick accumulation and growing. Then a couple years of playoff experience.

But we would hopefully have a core with a foundational player or two. A core that could give us a 20-25% shot for five years. Right now we are positioning ourselves to have an under 5% shot for maybe five years, and by the end of that period our best players will be past their prime, and we will have to start from scratch again.

If Kyle and DeMar were 25 it'd be a different story. But KD and Curry are only a year older than DeMar, and both are younger than Kyle. Klay and Draymond are younger than both Kyle and DeMar, and we don't even have a third player as good as those two guys.

You believe tanking will result in us being better than the Celtics in 6-7 years ? Okay.

[LJ2]

This kind of hyperbole is why we can't have a productive discussion.

The crux of the issue is whether we have true championship-level talent as the foundation for this roster. The Cavs have it. They won last year. They can tweak and change coaches and hope the Warriors lose a key player or something.

Does anyone think, after adding Ibaka and Tucker, and getting swept, that we have that kind of foundation? I hoped we did. I thought we might push the Cavs to seven or even win.

But the evidence shows that that was just wishful thinking. And if we can't compete with the Cavs, how can we compete with the Warriors?

I'm not saying we definitely must rebuild. But if we are moving forward we can't just add to a flawed foundation.

We could land ourselves a great talent like when we got VC, but we weren't able to put anything around him. We sort landed another good player with T-Mac, then with Bosh, but again could not put a supporting cast around those guys.

I'd rather take the Spurs approach. Stay competitive, and wait for the right time to use some assets to move up in the draft to nab a player you think can be special or to trade for a star when available. We aren't tied to Lowry, DeMar, Ibaka or whomever we sign this summer. They can be moved when the time is right.