Who is the Most Overrated Team in the East ..aka.. Why Boston Sux.

[tDotted]

The Raptors depth IS terrible.

We have 6 guys who have proven to be serviceable NBA players: Kyle, DeMar, Norm, JV, Ibaka, Miles.

3 of those guys are mediocre to bad defensively (DeMar, Miles, JV). The other 3 are above average to good, but not elite.

The other rotation players are fucking terrible: Wright, Siakam, Poeltl... fucking Caboclo? (OG?). None of these guys have shown they can play at the NBA level, and they aren't exactly high ceiling prospects. Wright is already 25, Siakam is 23, Poeltl was supposed to be an instant impact type prospect with mediocre upside.

You can actually see why Norm isn't starting. Even though it kills our spacing in the DeMar bench unit, we can't afford to start Norm because otherwise DeMar and Kyle will be out there without any sort of secondary playmaker in their bench units. We've lost CoJo and it looks like Wright is nowhere near as good offensively (which is saying something because CoJo wasn't even that good on offense).

This is what happens when you cheap out as a franchise. MLSE just paid the guys who will get us in the playoffs (DeMar, Kyle, Ibaka) and said fuck it from there and just looked to cut costs. We have a bunch of crap players coming off our bench now with the exception of Norm.

You guys overrate the shit out of these prospects. Go ask any other fan from a different fanbase what they think of guys like Wright, SIakam, Poeltl, etc. They aren't good players.

Not only that but thanks to our cost-cutting, we gave up the only assets we actually had to try to make a trade to get better. We can't afford to use Norm in a trade because our wing depth would be even more depleted, and JV has very little value. This team is crying out for a 2-way player at the 3/4, and if you guys think Anunoby is magically gonna be that in his rookie season and hit 3s while defending at a high level... you're in for a very rude awakening.

I said this from the start of our cost-cutting moves in the offseason and now it's coming to fruition. We are 6 deep. That is not good enough, period. There's a reason why projections have us winning 45-49 games, and it's not because they hate Canada, it's because the roster is thin as hell and very flawed.

Hot take of the day goes to........

Wright isn't a good player now despite being one of the best defenders at his position?

Being one of the highest salaried teams is "cheaping out on the franchise"?

And weren't you saying a couple of weeks ago Poeltl should be the starter??

LOL dude.

[ebrian]

The sample size must be awfully tiny but can you elaborate on why Delon Wright is one of the best defenders at his position?

[DanH]

The Raptors depth IS terrible.

We have 6 guys who have proven to be serviceable NBA players: Kyle, DeMar, Norm, JV, Ibaka, Miles.

3 of those guys are mediocre to bad defensively (DeMar, Miles, JV). The other 3 are above average to good, but not elite.

The other rotation players are fucking terrible: Wright, Siakam, Poeltl... fucking Caboclo? (OG?). None of these guys have shown they can play at the NBA level, and they aren't exactly high ceiling prospects. Wright is already 25, Siakam is 23, Poeltl was supposed to be an instant impact type prospect with mediocre upside.

You can actually see why Norm isn't starting. Even though it kills our spacing in the DeMar bench unit, we can't afford to start Norm because otherwise DeMar and Kyle will be out there without any sort of secondary playmaker in their bench units. We've lost CoJo and it looks like Wright is nowhere near as good offensively (which is saying something because CoJo wasn't even that good on offense).

This is what happens when you cheap out as a franchise. MLSE just paid the guys who will get us in the playoffs (DeMar, Kyle, Ibaka) and said fuck it from there and just looked to cut costs. We have a bunch of crap players coming off our bench now with the exception of Norm.

You guys overrate the shit out of these prospects. Go ask any other fan from a different fanbase what they think of guys like Wright, SIakam, Poeltl, etc. They aren't good players.

Not only that but thanks to our cost-cutting, we gave up the only assets we actually had to try to make a trade to get better. We can't afford to use Norm in a trade because our wing depth would be even more depleted, and JV has very little value. This team is crying out for a 2-way player at the 3/4, and if you guys think Anunoby is magically gonna be that in his rookie season and hit 3s while defending at a high level... you're in for a very rude awakening.

I said this from the start of our cost-cutting moves in the offseason and now it's coming to fruition. We are 6 deep. That is not good enough, period. There's a reason why projections have us winning 45-49 games, and it's not because they hate Canada, it's because the roster is thin as hell and very flawed.

Yeah, I feel pretty confident in our top 9 guys. Siakam has shown he can play on the court - he was totally misused last year in lineups he didn't fit in and against superior players, but as an energy big against bench players? He's fine. Poeltl looked really good last year, to the point where he's already penciled in as JV's replacement whenever the team moves him or after his contract is up, and can handle backup minutes easily enough. Wright was ready to be backup PG two years ago when he was drafted. He'll be just fine as well, though I agree he's the highest risk position on the team, as he'll play the most minutes.

And as you note, the top 6 are solid, and are comprised mostly of the same core that has been a ~50 win core for nearly half a decade now.

Throw in that two of those three have a decent third option behind them (BeBe having proven he can at least be functional within a rotation, Van Vleet another energy bench guy who can shoot), heck all three if OG will be ready soon, and my depth concerns are basically nil. Sure, if Lowry gets hurt, we'll struggle for a bit. Same for Ibaka. But this team has shown again and again that it can tread water for short periods when needed, even if that success can't be maintained long term without key players.

Yes, we have young players who might get bigger roles this year. Siakam's role will probably be smaller - at 12 MPG over 82 games he'd barely play more total minutes than he did last year as a starter, and he'll play every one of those minutes against weaker opposition than he did last year. Norm will play more - of course, that's a good thing. Ibaka will get more minutes total, good thing. Poeltl will get more minutes, and more consistent minutes, but I still have him pegged at only 18 MPG, and most of that against bench players. Plus, he's pretty good.

Wright is the big question mark. He'll have to play something like 21 minutes in tight games, and that's a big chunk of the game. Tough to judge how he will do based on last year. The good news is, he'll play about half his meaningful minutes with Lowry, which he barely got to do last year (42 minutes total), but had incredible success in those minutes (114 ORTG, 78 DRTG). And the rest of his minutes will be beside DeMar, where they also held their own like most DeMar bench units (much bigger sample here, 163 minutes played together to the tune of a +3 net rating). Early signs are all good. But still, he's the real risk.

The 10th man is a bit of a question mark - it's the only spot that might go to a rookie, or Bruno (who is effectively a rookie). Of course, if the real concerns start at your 10th man, your rotation is pretty solid.

In any case, we have question marks this year in places we thought we had solid options last year. Did anyone see the trainwreck of a season CoJo had coming? Patterson was all-world in terms of making things work, but in the second half of the season, that disappeared. Never mind the spots we knew for sure were going to be a problem - Carroll as the starting 3, Siakam as the starting 4. While this year we have some confidence in those significantly more important spots than the 7-9 spots with Ibaka and either of Miles/Norm. The other of Miles/Norm is at least as dependable as Ross was. And Poeltl is in the same spot he won last season, backup C.

So, yes. We have less "proven" depth at the 7-9 spots than we did last year. Unless you build last year's rotation correctly, in which case rookie Siakam would sit in that depth spot, and sophomore Siakam should be an upgrade on rookie Siakam. Same goes for sophomore Poeltl over rookie Poeltl. So the worry is Wright in CoJo's place. That's it. And CoJo shat the bed last year and we ended up over 50 wins while Lowry missed a quarter of the season (and Pat and DeRozan missed chunks as well).

My concern level is very low. Heck, look through some other rosters in the East. Washington has a bunch of guys they KNOW are terrible on their bench, and wish they had upside pieces like ours taking those roles. Boston has rookies and sophomores playing key roles for them this year, never mind guys like Shane Larkin and Terry Rozier, who are young-ish but also demonstrably bad. Milwaukee's starting PG and C are sophomores, where are all the concerns for their depth? The reality is that teams do tend to have young guys lined up to play minutes. The good news is, the Raptors have a team and rotation structure where those young guys should be able to find success more easily than on other teams, and it shows in their success when used properly (as they likely will be this year) last season.

[DanH]

The sample size must be awfully tiny but can you elaborate on why Delon Wright is one of the best defenders at his position?

I imagine he's referring to Delon ranking 8th in the league in defensive RPM among PG's last season.

Actually, interesting factoid:

Lowry ranked 4th in PG DRPM, Wright ranked 8th, and Van Vleet ranked 11th. Wright's sample is small but not minuscule like Van Vleet's, and he played real minutes while Lowry was hurt so it's not all skewed by garbage time as Van Vleet's is.

Their offensive RPM's are all over the place, such that Lowry's overall RPM ranked 2nd among PG's, Wright's was basically break-even, and Van Vleet's was very bad. But to the point being made above - yes, all signs point to the Raptors having great defensive depth at the PG position.

[tDotted]

I imagine he's referring to Delon ranking 8th in the league in defensive RPM among PG's last season.

That plus his per 36 pace of 2.2 steals and a block is pretty elite for a point guard.

He was superb defensively in the backup role when Lowry was out, and that's why the organization was fine with trading Joseph away.

[Demographic Shift]

Oh man how have I not been keeping up with this thread. Gold.

I'm just chiming in to say that ebrian is rightfully concerned about our depth. Anyone who isn't has their homer glasses on.

That said, there is also an opportunity for some upside surprises from the bench given its youth and inexperience. But the likelihood of that is limited by limited ceilings (OG being the likely exception). All I can hope for is that they become solid rotational players... And even that is going to take a lot of growing pains over the next few months.

Yep..miss your counterbalance point of view.

Like an idiot I took in the 1 AM start last night. It could have been a bad game and Raps didn’t dress Norm and Kyle but the observation from this cheap seat is the issue going forward is more shot makers rather than depth. It looked like a new subdivision..lots of bricks being laid. Serge was off...DD missed from deep as well .Miles was OK...not great but OK. Have to take into account no Kyle and Norm though.

On the depth discussion....

After an initial flumoxing from that rat Pat Beverley, Wright composed himself and looked pretty good against pressure on the ball defense. He was able to shed Patrick quite a few times and get inside on him easily and didn’t give up the ball. If he can handle Beverly he can lineup against anyone.

Poeltl looked OK and we shouldn’t worry to much. He kept the ball alive on the glass. He needs to get better at the FT line but he is going to fare well against 2nd team 5s.

Siakam presents a spacing issue but can’t see him being required to score from the perimeter. He will balance that with his ability to get out on the break and will be the beneficiary of lowery getting him the ball on cuts to the basket. He is all arms elbows and knees on the offensive glass. He will be will OK to round out the top 10.

Freddy also looks fine..but his minutes will be light. Too many guys in front of him.

After that we have a bunch of guys named Moe from 11 to 15...but then ..in a salary cap who doesn’t. Bruno looks lost. Not much if any court awareness...He can’t read plays fast enough and gives the ball up on poor passes. He is a decent rebounder but it’s back to the Hershey centre for him. McKinnie is the consummate D League guy. Everywhere and nowhere. Nogueira can help but his issues are between the ears. If he wants to play he is going to have to be unafraid to give his body up inside on getting to the basket. So far he is still a little gun shy unless it’s a put back dunk. He is behind Poeltl who is unafraid.

Need the shooting to come through this year...

[ebrian]

So I decided to take a more pro-active approach by looking at how Boston will distribute their minutes. It's a little harder to extrapolate given that more than two thirds of their roster is playing for other teams this year but here's my best bet:

Celtics minutes last year:
1. PG Isaiah Thomas, 34 (gone)
2. SG Avery Bradley, 33 (gone)
3. SF Jae Crowder, 32 (gone)
4. C Al Horford, 32
5. SG Marcus Smart, 30
6. C Kelly Olynyk, 21 (gone)
7. PF Amir Johnson, 20 (gone)
8. SF Jaylen Brown, 17
9. PG Terry Rozier, 17
10. PF Jonas Jerebko, 16 (gone)

2017-2018 projections (I'm only going to put the order):
1. PG Kyrie Irving
2. SF Gordon Hayward
3. SF Jaylen Brown
4. C Al Horford
5. SF Jayson Tatum
6. SG Marcus Smart
7. PF Marcus Morris
8. C Aaron Baynes
9. PG Terry Rozier

You can see that Olynyk played a huge chunk of minutes last year and Boston's only other C is now Aron Baynes, who played about 15 mpg for Detroit. It's not a huge drop but similar to Siakam, Baynes is not going to be able to stretch the floor by any means the way Olynyk could. I suspect any time Baynes sees the floor they'll just need to load up on shooters. It's going to be a tricky situation for them if/when Horford misses any time.

Boston has no choice but to play small ball a lot this year, but that might not be so bad as most teams are doing it anyway. The lineups that Boston will use this year will depend a lot on how much Jaylen Brown improves or how quickly Jayson Tatum acclimates to the NBA. My money is on Tatum but I guess we'll see. I was never that high on Boston choosing Jaylen Brown 3rd overall last year.. seemed like a stretch.

Kyrie has slightly more leeway than Kyle Lowry does in terms of needing to stay healthy. Terry Rozier is the backup but thy also still have Marcus Smart, who I think will play more at the point this year since they're loaded with wings.

I assume Hayward will slide into the SG spot and they'll rotate Brown/Tatum accordingly depending on matchup. The Morris twins have been exonerated so that gives them the guy they need at the 4.

Boston has similar problems as we do in the front court with depth.. we have a little more at C, they have a little more at the wing. I think where they have a slight advantage in depth overall is that the ceilings of their inexperienced youth should be fairly higher, just by way of how high they were taken in their respective drafts. Rozier and Yabusele were both just outside the lottery, and Tatum/Brown both taken 3rd overall. Marcus Smart is a former 6th overall pick. Sure, one could argue they were taken too early or that they could be complete draft busts (cross your fingers!) but for now let's just give them the benefit of doubt.

I'll look at Washington tomorrow.

[Just Is]

I just noticed I accidentally voted for Philly over Boston. Although I really do like this Philly team ... I do think if I was going to pick a second most overrated team ... it'd be them. I even think I'm overrating them a little.

Still doesn't even come close to touching Boston though.

[Demographic Shift]

I just noticed I accidentally voted for Philly over Boston. Although I really do like this Philly team ... I do think if I was going to pick a second most overrated team ... it'd be them. I even think I'm overrating them a little.

Still doesn't even come close to touching Boston though.

Fair enough.....judging by the oaths being sworn after two exhibition games (one without their best player) the Raps May get a lot more votes for being the most over rated...till the next win. Ah..the mercurial life of a Raps fan.

[KeonClark]

On the raptors cheaping out thing I saw on an earlier post..

Tucker chose to go elsewhere. Raptors tried. Joseph left because we needed miles as a shooter and we drafted a fist rounder making far less which is just natural succession. Patterson is tough but he was very anti clutch in the postseason, it felt mutual that was time to go and let's hope one of these rookies has more big game ice in his veins than +/- king 2pat. And I think we can all agree carrolls time was done, don't go away mad just go away.

So on the surface it may look like the team cheaped out, but on a case by case basis it's all understandable and the first discussion is team improvement in every decision still imo

[planetmars]

Nic Batum potentially out for the year with a torn UCL in his elbow. Sucks for the Hornets. Could impact their place in the standings this year.

[Nilanka]

Nic Batum potentially out for the year with a torn UCL in his elbow. Sucks for the Hornets. Could impact their place in the standings this year.

Wow, that's a big blow for a team that was aiming for home court in the 1st round.

More pressure on Howard to hit his free throws, lol.

[Mess]

Nic Batum potentially out for the year with a torn UCL in his elbow. Sucks for the Hornets. Could impact their place in the standings this year.

Oof definitely. Kemba will have to do even more heavy lifting. Monk isn't ready yet and Lamb can't really initiate out of the pick and roll...granted this is based on one half of scrubs vs scrubs against the Celtics...but man, it was ugly. Kaminski was just tossing up runners off the side of the backboard.

[Demographic Shift]

Nic Batum potentially out for the year with a torn UCL in his elbow. Sucks for the Hornets. Could impact their place in the standings this year.

Wow...that stings...
If he is on the shelf for the season the Hornets �� will be life and death to make the playoffs....
Any word on how this happened.
Practice injury or just general wear and tear and he woke up with it.

Edit...CBS is saying 8 to 12 weeks at a minimum....

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/r...ment-in-elbow/

[planetmars]

Wow...that stings...
If he is on the shelf for the season the Hornets �� will be life and death to make the playoffs....
Any word on how this happened.
Practice injury or just general wear and tear and he woke up with it.

Edit...CBS is saying 8 to 12 weeks at a minimum....

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/r...ment-in-elbow/

Okay cool.. initial report said he'd be out the whole year.