Some interesting (early) lineup stats

[KeonClark]

See, this is what puts you in the lower tier of posters on this forum Dan. "I can't say what I will advocate for at that point..." Clearly lower tier. There are others here who have been able to advocate after only four games. Their new advocation technique is unstoppable and far superior. Your envy is obvious and your jealousy does not do you credit. Your simple excuses of "small sample size" are unacceptable. #sarcasm

He's a poor man's claw reborn

[DanH]

Demonstration of small sample nonsense. Prior to last game, the starters were really struggling, posting a -7 net rating. Fast forward ONE GAME, and they've already snuck into the positives and could easily swing just as big a change this game or the next one. Heck, it's not like the Raps blew Utah out or anything, either.

When one game can so easily change something that much, it means the data you have isn't worth jack.

[Puffer]

Demonstration of small sample nonsense. Prior to last game, the starters were really struggling, posting a -7 net rating. Fast forward ONE GAME, and they've already snuck into the positives and could easily swing just as big a change this game or the next one. Heck, it's not like the Raps blew Utah out or anything, either.

When one game can so easily change something that much, it means the data you have isn't worth jack.

Agree 100%

[Rudy Bargnani]

Demonstration of small sample nonsense. Prior to last game, the starters were really struggling, posting a -7 net rating. Fast forward ONE GAME, and they've already snuck into the positives and could easily swing just as big a change this game or the next one. Heck, it's not like the Raps blew Utah out or anything, either.

When one game can so easily change something that much, it means the data you have isn't worth jack.

I get what you're saying. But if the team is playing poorly, looking at stats is still a reasonable thing to do and discuss.
The JV-Ibaka pairing continues to struggle together. I'm happy to give it 20 games as you say and I hope it gets better. But man it's not a good sign how they have been playing together.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Bebe on court Defensive Rating = 97.6; Net Rating = +7.6
Poeltl on court Defensive Rating = 100.0; Net Rating = +2.0
JV on court Defensive Rating = 113.9; Net Rating = +0.3

[MixxAOR]

Bebe on court Defensive Rating = 97.6; Net Rating = +7.6
Poeltl on court Defensive Rating = 100.0; Net Rating = +2.0
JV on court Defensive Rating = 113.9; Net Rating = +0.3

yeah people will question this stat because Bebe is not that great. Eye-test wise

[Shaolin Fantastic]

yeah people will question this stat because Bebe is not that great. Eye-test wise

I'm not advocating starting Bebe, but Casey is justified in playing him. He has had a ridiculous net rating for three years now. We can give the "short-leash" excuse all we want, but the fact is the numbers are there and they show that he and the team are extremely effective while he's on the floor. This year he has the 2nd best on-off rating of our regular rotation players (OG is first), and other than Lowry and 2Pat he had the best on-off rating on the team last year as well.

And I don't agree at all that he looks ineffective out there. He's a pretty decent passer for a big, he finishes really well around the basket and defensively his length is so disruptive for opponent shots anywhere near the basket, and despite not being that strong his length actually makes him pretty solid in the post as well. He's a really nice player who some have decided to scapegoat or criticize Casey for playing, when really the facts show so far that we've been most ineffective with JV at center, not him.

[Thohr]

Bebe on court Defensive Rating = 97.6; Net Rating = +7.6
Poeltl on court Defensive Rating = 100.0; Net Rating = +2.0
JV on court Defensive Rating = 113.9; Net Rating = +0.3

I dont mind the Net Rating Values. Because there 5 man on the court and it also depends against the defense they played on. For my reason, i like the Player Efficiency Rating and find it more effective to see how good a player is and how he makes an impact in the game.

The Rating for those 3 PLayers are:

Poeltl: PER = 21.05; VA = 29.2
Bebe: PER = 19.30; VA = 18.3
JV: PER = 19.09; VA = 21.4

If you consider this, Poeltl should be the starter :-)

I dont say Poeltl have to start, but he should play more minutes and it would be better for the team. He is one of the best OReb Guys in the team and create second chances. He also see the free man and has high Basketball IQ and is solid in D.

That's why I don't understand his lack of minutes.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I dont mind the Net Rating Values. Because there 5 man on the court and it also depends against the defense they played on. For my reason, i like the Player Efficiency Rating and find it more effective to see how good a player is and how he makes an impact in the game.

The Rating for those 3 PLayers are:

Poeltl: PER = 21.05; VA = 29.2
Bebe: PER = 19.30; VA = 18.3
JV: PER = 19.09; VA = 21.4

If you consider this, Poeltl should be the starter :-)

I dont say Poeltl have to start, but he should play more minutes and it would be better for the team. He is one of the best OReb Guys in the team and create second chances. He also see the free man and has high Basketball IQ and is solid in D.

That's why I don't understand his lack of minutes.

I've been saying Poeltl should start from the summer so you'll get no disagreement from me there.

My larger point is that between Poeltl, Ibaka and Bebe we can EASILY handle 48 very effective minutes at the center position. We don't need Valanciunas like some have been trying to say we do at all. Not only that but we can actually get good 2-way play at the position in those minutes rather than just being good on offense (and to be fair to JV, we are best offensively with him at center out of Poeltl, Bebe and himself) and poor defensively.

He can't even stay on the floor against our main rivals. Too slow for Boston and Cleveland, for some reason seems to get bullied by Gortat every time we play the Wiz too.

[Rudy Bargnani]

I've been saying Poeltl should start from the summer so you'll get no disagreement from me there.

My larger point is that between Poeltl, Ibaka and Bebe we can EASILY handle 48 very effective minutes at the center position. We don't need Valanciunas like some have been trying to say we do at all. Not only that but we can actually get good 2-way play at the position in those minutes rather than just being good on offense and poor defensively.

He can't even stay on the floor against our main rivals. Too slow for Boston and Cleveland, for some reason seems to get bullied by Gortat every time we play the Wiz too.

One reason the JV supporters bring to the discussion is that the team needs JV's rebounding. Last night against the Celtics, both JV and Bebe played 18 minutes and Bebe had double the rebounds JV had. (7-3)

[Thohr]

I agree. JV is terrible against our main rivals. I would like to see Poeltl starting, otherwise I knew we have Casey and that will not happen this season.

In my opinion they can trade JV or Bebe, both possible. Personally i enjoy JV more than Bebe. Bebe might be better against all opponents, but JV has some matchups where he is very effective against and ways better than Bebe.

If I had a wish:

Poeltl starting, Ibaka 2nd Unit and JV occasional depending on the matchup.

If they trade JV i will also enjoy Poeltl/Ibaka/Bebe

[Shaolin Fantastic]

One reason the JV supporters bring to the discussion is that the team needs JV's rebounding. Last night against the Celtics, both JV and Bebe played 18 minutes and Bebe had double the rebounds JV had. (7-3)

Poeltl has a better rebound percentage than JV so far this season slightly (21.0% to 20.8%). Also this point is so overstated.

JV is a very good individual rebounder, but he doesn't actually help the overall rebounding that much when he's on the floor. This is evidenced by looking at our on-off rebounding numbers for him for the past few years, where you can see that the team basically has the same rebound rate when he's on as when he's off.

This is because while he will win rebound battles, his bad defense often leaves him and other players out of position to rebound. So any advantage you get by him being able to win one on one battles is more or less negated (because other players can't win those battles especially when they can't establish a box out due to being out of position).

[Thohr]

One reason the JV supporters bring to the discussion is that the team needs JV's rebounding. Last night against the Celtics, both JV and Bebe played 18 minutes and Bebe had double the rebounds JV had. (7-3)

We need the rebounds extremly. And thats where - for me - Poeltl comes in. His Hustle for rebounds is so nice to see. Its true, Bebe had more rebounds, but 4 or 5 rebounds Bebe had were not in trouble or against opponent players. Just free bouncing balls.

JV hustle a bit more for rebounds than Bebe. Bebe is absolutly the better shot blocker than JV.