Game #15: New York Knicks 84 - Toronto Raptors 107

[Chr1s1anL]

Let's all bask in the glow of good basketball. We're finally winning the right way.

I'll get the Wizards thread up tomorrow. Have a good night everybody.

There is no wrong way of winning.

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[Scraptor]

There is no wrong way of winning.

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Sure there are. If you cheat to win, that's wrong. If you cram to beat someone on a test, but they've actually learned the material thoroughly, you may have a short term win but they will know more than you over the long term.

If you play iso-ball all year for regular season wins, when you know it won't work in the playoffs, that's wrong.

If you overplay shitty marginal vets at the cost of developing your young players, you may squeeze out a couple wins in the short term while costing you many more wins over the long term. That's wrong too.

If you force your guys to play excessive minutes against bad teams, you wear them out and increase the likelihood of injury for the playoffs. That's also wrong.

But if you don't believe the playoffs matter, or that life extends beyond the next 24 hours, then sure, you can rationalize that there is no wrong way of winning.

[Chr1s1anL]

Sure there are. If you cheat to win, that's wrong. If you cram to beat someone on a test, but they've actually learned the material thoroughly, you may have a short term win but they will know more than you over the long term.

If you play iso-ball all year for regular season wins, when you know it won't work in the playoffs, that's wrong.

If you overplay shitty marginal vets at the cost of developing your young players, you may squeeze out a couple wins in the short term while costing you many more wins over the long term. That's wrong too.

If you force your guys to play excessive minutes against bad teams, you wear them out and increase the likelihood of injury for the playoffs. That's also wrong.

But if you don't believe the playoffs matter, or that life extends beyond the next 24 hours, then sure, you can rationalize that there is no wrong way of winning.

Changing the style of play won't make a difference against the cav. Only more talent would. Even with iso ball we were 2 games away from the Finals. Are you so sure we can do that this year?

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[Scraptor]

Changing the style of play won't make a difference against the cav. Only more talent would. Even with iso ball we were 2 games away from the Finals. Are you so sure we can do that this year?

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Show me where I said we can beat the Cavs with a different playstyle.

Masai has put together a capped-out team with no true superstar. We are probably not going to beat the Cavs or go to the Finals anytime soon. But that doesn't mean playstyle doesn't matter.

If we are going to keep OG and Norm and Jakob here for the long term, I want them to develop good habits, so they can reach their greatest potential. Even if we are going to use them as trade pieces, I want them performing at a high level so we can get the best value for them.

As I pointed out in another thread, most of our players under the old system are now performing better under new systems. The system also influences trade value, and if Carroll had played under this system I doubt we would have had to surrender two picks to get rid of him.

This year is a great step in the right direction, but it's also bittersweet because it's showing that we could have implemented these changes years ago. Without changing the core we've gone from 30th in the league in assist rate to 9th.

[Chr1s1anL]

Show me where I said we can beat the Cavs with a different playstyle.

Masai has put together a capped-out team with no true superstar. We are probably not going to beat the Cavs or go to the Finals anytime soon. But that doesn't mean playstyle doesn't matter.

If we are going to keep OG and Norm and Jakob here for the long term, I want them to develop good habits, so they can reach their greatest potential. Even if we are going to use them as trade pieces, I want them performing at a high level so we can get the best value for them.

As I pointed out in another thread, most of our players under the old system are now performing better under new systems. The system also influences trade value, and if Carroll had played under this system I doubt we would have had to surrender two picks to get rid of him.

This year is a great step in the right direction, but it's also bittersweet because it's showing that we could have implemented these changes years ago. Without changing the core we've gone from 30th in the league in assist rate to 9th.

Carroll was getting the same amount open shots here than he was in Atlanta. He was just hurt and sucked. Our role players this year our better players than previous ones. Biz is worse in Orlanndo, 2pat is worse in OKC, Ross is worse in Orlando, Vasquez out the league.

Norm/OG/Yak are all harder workers. They will reach their full potential in any system. That's what happens when your good and work hard.

If it's not about winning why did you bring up using Iso knowing you wont win in playoffs? All this style change has shown is that Casey/Lowry/Deebo can produce an elite offence with any style.

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[Bendit]

That game is the way I like it....relaxing, pretty execution, Casey pushing the right buttons, cruise control...and my dog not on edge with my curses. Even the hate factor was diminished with Melo not on that team anymore.

[slaw]

That game is the way I like it....relaxing, pretty execution, Casey pushing the right buttons, cruise control...and my dog not on edge with my curses. Even the hate factor was diminished with Melo not on that team anymore.

I still hate the Knicks but you are right that the venom wasn't as strong last night mostly because I felt a little sorry for them. The Knicks are still pretty bad (after years of being even worse) and trying to notionally rebuild while starting one third year player and having one (?) rotation player who is a rookie. What kind of rebuild is that? Meanwhile, the Raptors, with one the best records in the league over the past 4-5 years and vying for the Eastern Conference title, started a second year guy and a rookie, while rolling out another second year player and an undrafted second year player as key pieces in their rotation. That also doesn't mention the other two third year players who are key rotation guys. And, among all those young guys, only one was a lotto pick.

Goes to show you the difference between the two organizations.

[golden]

There is no wrong way of winning.

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"Process over Results" is an important guiding philosophy... be it in sports or life, in general.

..... the Spurs value process over results. That starts with coach Gregg Popovich. And on Saturday night, after a win, mind you, Popovich blasted his team for its performance:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/p...in-over-hawks/

[slaw]

"Process over Results" is an important guiding philosophy... be it in sports or life, in general.



https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/p...in-over-hawks/

“It does not matter much in what way a general behaves, provided his efficiency be so great that it flavors the way he behaves, whether it be this way or that.”

Sorry, this stuff drives me nuts. Spurs value product. Like every great business. Product over process. Always, always product over process. Product in sports does not equal wins/losses.

We actually have a term for businesses that value process over product: bankrupt.

[Garbo]

We actually have a term for businesses that value process over product: bankrupt.

True. Not to be confused with the term for businesses that value product with disregard for process: Unsustainable

[The Great One]

"Process over Results" is an important guiding philosophy... be it in sports or life, in general.



https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/p...in-over-hawks/

Trust The Process.

[slaw]

True. Not to be confused with the term for businesses that value product with disregard for process: Unsustainable

Oh, I don't think you disregard the process of how you do things but you don't value the way that you do things so much that you favour them over achieving results. No effective business can operate that way.

Process over results would mean that a NBA team valued its draft process so much (developed by a team of experts and consultants and data analysis over 10 years) that despite picking 5 busts in a row using the process it stuck with the same process because they knew that eventually it would work. No one, and I mean no one, would run a business that way but that's what people are advocating when they say process over results. It's crazy town.

Trust The Process.

Speaking of which.....

[golden]

“It does not matter much in what way a general behaves, provided his efficiency be so great that it flavors the way he behaves, whether it be this way or that.”

Sorry, this stuff drives me nuts. Spurs value product. Like every great business. Product over process. Always, always product over process. Product in sports does not equal wins/losses.

We actually have a term for businesses that value process over product: bankrupt.

We (i.e. successful business owners) have a term for know-it-all management consultant who pitch us their holier-than-thou services at ridiculous fees that never generate a return.... parasites. Starting multiple successful businesses for over 20 years and still going strong, I've only met a select few consultants that actually did any good for the company, despite the fact that the consultant himself did quite well, financially.

So, the best product always wins in business? Are you kidding me? Are you trying to tell me that you can separate the final product from the product development process itself? And marketing is not a process? Hiring is not a process? Manufacturing is not a process? Financing is not a process. Building a business itself is not a process? What isn't a process in business?

slaw.... your arrogant, condescending tone screams that you assume you're the only person on this board who knows anything about running successful businesses. Process is just another term for installing successful sustainable habits which become corporate culture. When the market changes, your product is toast and it's your process (i.e habits) that keep you in the game.

Product over process. What a complete load of crap.

[Maury]

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Process also speaks to the sustainability of the product that you're producing as well.

I'm still a student, so I can give an example relating to that.

Student A and student B have roughly the same intellect. Student A doesn't go to class and doesn't study until the night before the final, but it turns out he lucks out the exam focused on the same areas he focused on in his cram session, so he ends up getting an A.

Student B studies an hour a day for the course, regularly attending and reviewing material. Ends up getting a B+ on the final exam.

So yeah, student A has the better product (the product being the grade in that particular class), but who would you pick to have a better GPA for the next 3 years in university? Student B. Why? Because they have a better process; one that is sustainable and replicable to achieve good results. Student A just happened to get lucky in this one particular case.