Valanciunas needs to come off the bench.

[planetmars]

That's all fine and dandy but you can't just ignore the numbers. The starters are literally playing league-worst defense. That's not sustainable and that's not a winning strategy.

We've tried this nonsense before with Scola where we insisted on starting him all year with JV until we got to the playoffs with Indiana and they forced us to change it after going up 2-1. Milwaukee did the same to us last year where we were forced to move JV to the bench after going down 2-1.

We're not always going to be able to come back from deficits in series and have the freedom to change our lineup midway and figure things out. The bottom half of the east is getting better. We need to figure out our best lineups NOW and use them instead of waiting or trying to baby certain players' egos.

I think you put too much emphasis on starting. Its early in the game and the game is not decided after the first. Again the biggest centers in the league typically start. The game usually starts off slow as well as guys get into a rhythm. I don't see a future for JV on this team, but I still think him starting is the right call.

Scola is not JV. Scola sucked. JV can actually be pretty good. And the Milwaukee series had nothing to do with JV but everything to do with Powell.

As for ego's.. I doubt JV has an ego. The guy seems like such a team player to me.

[Chr1s1anL]

I'm not sacrificing our best lineups just for JV. Keep starting him and have quick sub ready. Right now the only value JV has is that he is starting center on a perennial 50 win team. JV has pretty much become a glorified Zaza for Raps. A nice screen setting big and rebounder. Keep starting and Masai will unfortunately have to sell low on him at the deadline.

I personally would want him to be packaged for DJ but, it seems more by day that the best you could get for him is Mirotic. Which I'm fine with. Mirotic bring that other 35+ 3pt shooter we need.

When the Bulls traded Gibson, it opened up a spot for Mirotic to start and provide some floor spacing for the starting unit. That spacing helped the overall production (+1.8 net rating with Gibson starting and +8.2 with Mirotic), but with so many ball-dominant players already in that lineup, it relegated Mirotic to a spot-up shooter.

In fact, 42.1 percent of Mirotic’s offense came from spot-up shooting and below average usage (19.8) meaning he did not serve as an offensive focal point so much as an outlet for kick-outs.

For the Bulls, extra 3-pointers were certainly not a bad thing, and based on where Mirotic is shooting, it’s no surprise that he is an analytics-favorite. Famously, Mirotic had an astronomical free throw attempt rate at 45.5 percent, while his 3-point attempt rate was 50.2 percent. This year, his free throw attempt rate dropped to 20.9 percent and his 3-point attempt rate increased to 60.3 percent. This explains his lack of production — with lower usage and more spotting up (because players like Jimmy Butler, Dwyane Wade and Rajon Rondo used the ball so much), Mirotic was unable to be used as the versatile offensive weapon he is because he was the only player that could provide floor spacing.

Defensively,*Mirotic has a reputation as an incapable defender, but that could not be further from the truth. According to Synergy, Mirotic ranks in the 95th percentile in half court defense, allowing only 0.769 points per possession. This matches my eye test. Mirotic has great awareness and knows how to position himself on defense to support the backside, help on drives and contest kick-outs. He is also a phenomenal pick-and-roll container, ranking in the 85th percentile. While he is made to look silly against the speediest point guards, he does the subtle*things right.

All things considered, Mirotic was very bad during the first half of the year, and got extremely hot after the the All-Star break. The depths of his cold streaks are like a Siberian winter, but when he heats up, it makes you realize the how productive a player he could be if he was consistent.

https://theathletic.com/59338/2017/0...ikola-mirotic/

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[GLF]

I'm not sacrificing our best lineups just for JV. Keep starting him and have quick sub ready. Right now the only value JV has is that he is starting center on a perennial 50 win team. JV has pretty much become a glorified Zaza for Raps. A nice screen setting big and rebounder. Keep starting and Masai will unfortunately have to sell low on him at the deadline.

I personally would want him to be packaged for DJ but, it seems more by day that the best you could get for him is Mirotic. Which I'm fine with. Mirotic bring that other 35+ 3pt shooter we need.

When the Bulls traded Gibson, it opened up a spot for Mirotic to start and provide some floor spacing for the starting unit. That spacing helped the overall production (+1.8 net rating with Gibson starting and +8.2 with Mirotic), but with so many ball-dominant players already in that lineup, it relegated Mirotic to a spot-up shooter.

In fact, 42.1 percent of Mirotic’s offense came from spot-up shooting and below average usage (19.8) meaning he did not serve as an offensive focal point so much as an outlet for kick-outs.

For the Bulls, extra 3-pointers were certainly not a bad thing, and based on where Mirotic is shooting, it’s no surprise that he is an analytics-favorite. Famously, Mirotic had an astronomical free throw attempt rate at 45.5 percent, while his 3-point attempt rate was 50.2 percent. This year, his free throw attempt rate dropped to 20.9 percent and his 3-point attempt rate increased to 60.3 percent. This explains his lack of production — with lower usage and more spotting up (because players like Jimmy Butler, Dwyane Wade and Rajon Rondo used the ball so much), Mirotic was unable to be used as the versatile offensive weapon he is because he was the only player that could provide floor spacing.

Defensively,*Mirotic has a reputation as an incapable defender, but that could not be further from the truth. According to Synergy, Mirotic ranks in the 95th percentile in half court defense, allowing only 0.769 points per possession. This matches my eye test. Mirotic has great awareness and knows how to position himself on defense to support the backside, help on drives and contest kick-outs. He is also a phenomenal pick-and-roll container, ranking in the 85th percentile. While he is made to look silly against the speediest point guards, he does the subtle*things right.

All things considered, Mirotic was very bad during the first half of the year, and got extremely hot after the the All-Star break. The depths of his cold streaks are like a Siberian winter, but when he heats up, it makes you realize the how productive a player he could be if he was consistent.

https://theathletic.com/59338/2017/0...ikola-mirotic/

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

I don't know about the whole Mirotic thing but I do agree with just continuing to start JV but have a very quick hook for him when things aren't going well. I feel bad because its not always Jonas' fault but you gotta do what you gotta do

[Scraptor]

https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...-nba-game.html



Doesn't sound like he'll be thrilled to be benched.

Shitty. He should have been traded years ago. Not only did we mismanage his development by turning him into heavy big, we mismanaged his value as an asset by not moving him when he had value.

The fact that he's openly saying this stuff to Kyle in front of reporters means we're probably reaching a breaking point. The guy has been a good soldier and kept his mouth shut for a long time.

Not even sure where we can send him. The two teams most in need of bigs are our main rivals: Cleveland and Boston. What a mess.

[white men can't jump]

Shitty. He should have been traded years ago. Not only did we mismanage his development by turning him into heavy big, we mismanaged his value as an asset by not moving him when he had value.

The fact that he's openly saying this stuff to Kyle in front of reporters means we're probably reaching a breaking point. The guy has been a good soldier and kept his mouth shut for a long time.

Not even sure where we can send him. The two teams most in need of bigs are our main rivals: Cleveland and Boston. What a mess.

Favourite part of the article:

"The evolving NBA landscape doesn’t favour the likes of Valanciunas, who’s never been known for his fleetness"

Actually Dave Feschuk, that's exactly what he was known for as a prospect and young player when we drafted him. He was a quick C who got up and down the floor faster than most bigs. We asked him to put on weight to bang and work on his low-post game, and guided him away from all his best physical/skill tools which would actually have fit in perfectly in today's league.

[slaw]

I'm not sure that moving him to the bench does much of anything.... He's just ill-suited to what the Raps are trying to do. Moving him to the bench has the potential to hurt a bench group that has a pretty good thing going most nights by playing high tempo, pressure basketball, particularly on defense. JV can't do that.

Frankly, I don't think he was in their plans at all this year but they couldn't move him, so they're forced to jam a square peg into a round hole. I think this issue will sort itself out via a trade at some point, whether in-season or this offseason.

As an aside, enough with the 'organization ruined him' stuff. He bulked up after his rookie season where he was manhandled nightly. He's had years to re-shape his body and he won't or can't. Every year you hear about him working out with this big or that but, yet, the next season, his game is no different. And, I'm not even saying it's his fault, maybe this is just what he is as a player.

[DogeLover1234]

I'm not sure that moving him to the bench does much of anything.... He's just ill-suited to what the Raps are trying to do. Moving him to the bench has the potential to hurt a bench group that has a pretty good thing going most nights by playing high tempo, pressure basketball, particularly on defense. JV can't do that.

Frankly, I don't think he was in their plans at all this year but they couldn't move him, so they're forced to jam a square peg into a round hole. I think this issue will sort itself out via a trade at some point, whether in-season or this offseason.

As an aside, enough with the 'organization ruined him' stuff. He bulked up after his rookie season where he was manhandled nightly. He's had years to re-shape his body and he won't or can't. Every year you hear about him working out with this big or that but, yet, the next season, his game is no different. And, I'm not even saying it's his fault, maybe this is just what he is as a player.

Eh I doubt they planned on a lot of stuff happening this year. No way they saw OG or Siakam being this good. I imagine they just decided to say, "lets play 12 guys early in the year and see what sticks." To this point its largely been a success, with JV as the only real let down.

To be honest, I don't see any trade for JV happening, simply because I don't think any trade makes the team better. At some point Casey is going to have to shorten the rotation, and I don't think anyone Raps get via JV will be better than guys in the rotation already.

KL/DW/FVV
DD/NP
OG/CJ/NP
PS/SI/OG/CJ
SI/JP/Bebe

Thats taking JV out entirely, I don't know where you fit someone else in. there simply isn't minutes for someone else. Having said that, I would love to see Masai make a trade for a draft pick. Not sure the path to getting a pick, but if he takes back Chandler from PHX and a second or one of their many firsts (likely highly protected) it would be interesting. Saves some money after a year and gets a pick. BTW I would not aquire Chandler to play him, simply for money after a year.

At this point, I don't think the Roster is going to get better this year, and tbh Raps are lucky to be very deep so to me every move should be to upgrade top end talent (I.E. Paul George/DeAndre Jordan) or getting more young talent.

[raptors999]

Eh I doubt they planned on a lot of stuff happening this year. No way they saw OG or Siakam being this good. I imagine they just decided to say, "lets play 12 guys early in the year and see what sticks." To this point its largely been a success, with JV as the only real let down.

To be honest, I don't see any trade for JV happening, simply because I don't think any trade makes the team better. At some point Casey is going to have to shorten the rotation, and I don't think anyone Raps get via JV will be better than guys in the rotation already.

KL/DW/FVV
DD/NP
OG/CJ/NP
PS/SI/OG/CJ
SI/JP/Bebe

Thats taking JV out entirely, I don't know where you fit someone else in. there simply isn't minutes for someone else. Having said that, I would love to see Masai make a trade for a draft pick. Not sure the path to getting a pick, but if he takes back Chandler from PHX and a second or one of their many firsts (likely highly protected) it would be interesting. Saves some money after a year and gets a pick. BTW I would not aquire Chandler to play him, simply for money after a year.

At this point, I don't think the Roster is going to get better this year, and tbh Raps are lucky to be very deep so to me every move should be to upgrade top end talent (I.E. Paul George/DeAndre Jordan) or getting more young talent.

Raps should try to unload Serge. He is redundant and blocks Pascal, OG and Poetl plus he is easier to move. As much crap JV gets, his skill set isnt matched by any of the young guys

[Demographic Shift]

Shitty. He should have been traded years ago. Not only did we mismanage his development by turning him into heavy big, we mismanaged his value as an asset by not moving him when he had value.

The fact that he's openly saying this stuff to Kyle in front of reporters means we're probably reaching a breaking point. The guy has been a good soldier and kept his mouth shut for a long time.

Not even sure where we can send him. The two teams most in need of bigs are our main rivals: Cleveland and Boston. What a mess.

I'm not sure that moving him to the bench does much of anything.... He's just ill-suited to what the Raps are trying to do. Moving him to the bench has the potential to hurt a bench group that has a pretty good thing going most nights by playing high tempo, pressure basketball, particularly on defense. JV can't do that.

Frankly, I don't think he was in their plans at all this year but they couldn't move him, so they're forced to jam a square peg into a round hole. I think this issue will sort itself out via a trade at some point, whether in-season or this offseason.

As an aside, enough with the 'organization ruined him' stuff. He bulked up after his rookie season where he was manhandled nightly. He's had years to re-shape his body and he won't or can't. Every year you hear about him working out with this big or that but, yet, the next season, his game is no different. And, I'm not even saying it's his fault, maybe this is just what he is as a player.

JV just isn’t fast enough to play the game the way it’s being played today. It’s a track meet out there.

It’s no ones fault.
Not JV’s that he isn’t fast enough.
Not the favourite whipping boy Dwane Casey who along with every other coach can’t coach speed.
Not Nick Nurses as his new system calls for outside shooting and ball movement at the expense of a slower paced half court game that just wasn’t working.

There are some nights that it’s advantageous to have him on the floor. He more than holds his own against Drummond and Cousins and there will be quite a few nights that his and Ibalka abject lack of speed are a disadvantage.

JV and Serge are like big cornerbacks who run 4.65 40’s. They can come up and make solid tackles at the line on running plays.

Problem is that teams are pass happy and the guys they’re covering run the 40 in 4.3.

[Fully]

I too think the Raptors are sort of stuck with JV in the starting lineup. Shifting him to the bench will just slow that unit down and negatively impact the way they fly around on defence - arguably their biggest strength. Obviously he's not a great fit with the starting group either but the quick hook and limited closing minutes accomplishes a lot of the same things that a shift to the bench does without worrying about ruining the chemistry of the reserve group.

The ideal resolution at this point would be for the Raps to trade him for something of value but that doesn't seem particularly likely either. There was rumblings of him being shopped at last year's deadline, and he was definitely shopped at the draft and during the offseason, without them finding a suitor in either case. Obviously the rest of the league isn't clamouring for a lumbering centre for the same reasons that the Raps are having a hard time keeping him on the court. $16 million per year for two more seasons after this one isn't exactly chump change either - especially if his next team plans on bringing him off the bench. Go through the list of teams in the league and it's really difficult to find a team that makes sense to really want/need JV that also has something to give back.

Maybe you're able to find a reclamation project or someone from another team's damaged goods bin to move him for - something like a Mirotic if not that player specifically.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

If we really turned down a JV for Drummond trade... that is a huge black mark on Masai's record. What stupidity if that rumor from the summer was actually true.

[Fully]

If we really turned down a JV for Drummond trade... that is a huge black mark on Masai's record. What stupidity if that rumor from the summer was actually true.

I believe the Drummond/JV rumour was at last year's deadline but yeah... Pretty big gaffe in hindsight if Masai balked at that deal. Of course, these 'rumours' are rarely as simple as they seem. Maybe it was Drummond for JV + other assets. Maybe the entire rumour was BS altogether.

[Scraptor]

I believe the Drummond/JV rumour was at last year's deadline but yeah... Pretty big gaffe in hindsight if Masai balked at that deal. Of course, these 'rumours' are rarely as simple as they seem. Maybe it was Drummond for JV + other assets. Maybe the entire rumour was BS altogether.

We were the ones pitching JV for Drummond, and got turned down.

the Raptors called the Pistons pitching a package centered around Valanciunas for Drummond, according to a league source.

The confusion may come from Masai telling JV he was better than Drummond on Open Gym.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

We were the ones pitching JV for Drummond, and got turned down.



The confusion may come from Masai telling JV he was better than Drummond on Open Gym.

Ah ok that's fine then.

The other way around would've been very bad.

[Hotshot]

JV has a poor BBIQ, even Jack eluded to the fact the deeper JV can establish himself in the painted area the more he can create for himself. The trouble begins when JV catches the ball outside the paint, waits 3 seconds to make an awkward move that he either gets stripped or he misses badly.