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Thread: Valanciunas needs to come off the bench.

  1. #141
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    What good does taking that money off in the summer actually do other than saving us luxury tax payments?

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  3. #142
    Raptors Republic All-Star Maury's Avatar
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    Mirotic is so bad I want nothing to do with him. We literally have no need for him. Any trade involving JV has to be for a borderline star or a salary dump, I donít want a veteran coming in and taking minutes from the guys we would be doing this to give minutes to.

  4. #143
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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    What good does taking that money off in the summer actually do other than saving us luxury tax payments?
    If the organization does not want to pay tax, then this is a way to avoid that now before the summer hits. I'm under the premise that the organization does not want to pay tax either this year or next.


    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    Mirotic is so bad I want nothing to do with him. We literally have no need for him. Any trade involving JV has to be for a borderline star or a salary dump, I don’t want a veteran coming in and taking minutes from the guys we would be doing this to give minutes to.
    He's not "bad". He's medicore. Doesn't move the dial much but neither does JV.. not when JV is only playing 20mpg and doesn't finish games. He won't really take minutes from anyone. Gives Siakam more time with the starters and less with the bench. Give Mirotic more time with the bench and less time with the starters. Plus he has a team option so can get from under his contract easily. Or use him in a trade for a star if one becomes available in the summer. Mirotic+Powell for Jordan/Gasol for example might be more enticing than JV+Powell for Jordan/Gasol. Mirotic can be waived by June 29th.. so Masai can make a trade at the draft and the Clippers/Grizzlies (for example) could shed $$$ real quick if they want.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    What good does taking that money off in the summer actually do other than saving us luxury tax payments?
    You realize there's penalties beyond "costs owners money" right? Like ones that can handcuff your basketball operations?

    To me it's not worth it being in the tax until you're in the top tier conversation for a title, JUUUUSST below it, or some other rare exceptions where you really need to keep core members together because you believe you'll be there soon. None of those apply to us.

    Dallas fans are interested in trading Noel for JV. We would want to swindle more from them seeing as he's a DNP-CD right now. Much higher defensive ceiling, fits into what we're doing, opens up cap wiggle room now and in the future, and gives more minutes to center Serge, Poeltl, Siakam.

    I hated the idea a few months ago. Starting to come around to it now
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

  6. #145
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    ok let me rephrase.

    I don't give a FUCK about MLSE saving money or not. And neither should anyone else. Most of you use Bell or Rogers, no? They make enough money.

  7. #146
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    You realize there's penalties beyond "costs owners money" right? Like ones that can handcuff your basketball operations?

    To me it's not worth it being in the tax until you're in the top tier conversation for a title, JUUUUSST below it, or some other rare exceptions where you really need to keep core members together because you believe you'll be there soon. None of those apply to us.

    Dallas fans are interested in trading Noel for JV. We would want to swindle more from them seeing as he's a DNP-CD right now. Much higher defensive ceiling, fits into what we're doing, opens up cap wiggle room now and in the future, and gives more minutes to center Serge, Poeltl, Siakam.

    I hated the idea a few months ago. Starting to come around to it now
    This team's window, with this expensive core, is like three years at most. This is the time to go into the tax, if ever.

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  9. #147
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    This team's window, with this expensive core, is like three years at most. This is the time to go into the tax, if ever.
    This, we shouldn't be pussyfooting about and counting pennies. They need to spend and maximize this core.

    Trading JV for an expiring is actually really fucking stupid now that I think about it, because that's 15M+ that we can't use as a trade ballast next year.

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  11. #148
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    If you're trading him for an expiring you need to be getting picks that have some actual value to be used later. If not you need to get a player who can help us more right now.

    Just trading him for Mirotic straight up like Christian wants would be moronic.

  12. #149
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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    This, we shouldn't be pussyfooting about and counting pennies. They need to spend and maximize this core.

    Trading JV for an expiring is actually really fucking stupid now that I think about it, because that's 15M+ that we can't use as a trade ballast next year.
    To me there are two acceptable and possible trade scenarios. Trade JV with some prospect value for a similar costing but better fitting player (I think this is unlikely this season, but possible in the off-season after proofing this version of the team, giving Poeltl another year under his belt, and freeing up future picks). Or, trade JV and Norm in the summer for a star player, with plenty of assets going the other way (picks, prospects, etc).

    Any version of salary dump is mostly just cheaping out unless the team is in love with another MLE player (who I think they would have a hard time replicating JV's usefulness with, unlike Carroll); and any dream of a significant draft asset return is just that - a dream.

  13. #150
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    To me there are two acceptable and possible trade scenarios. Trade JV with some prospect value for a similar costing but better fitting player (I think this is unlikely this season, but possible in the off-season after proofing this version of the team, giving Poeltl another year under his belt, and freeing up future picks). Or, trade JV and Norm in the summer for a star player, with plenty of assets going the other way (picks, prospects, etc).

    Any version of salary dump is mostly just cheaping out unless the team is in love with another MLE player (who I think they would have a hard time replicating JV's usefulness with, unlike Carroll); and any dream of a significant draft asset return is just that - a dream.
    This is where I go ehhh....10 pts 7 reb with below average defense, and dropping. JV looks like the game is speeding around him, younger guys coming up behind him, and confidence dropping by the day. Maybe I'm reading too much into the last couple weeks hurting his confidence and he'll start to bounce back later, but "Playoffs vs Pacers" JV? He seems like he's further and further away until he's a distant sight right now
    11/20/16 Lest we forget - The Sacramento Screw Job.
    We will not go quietly in the night. We will rage against the dying light. We will study every buzzer beater with intensified might, because somethin with the NBA doesn't smell right.

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  15. #151
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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    If you're trading him for an expiring you need to be getting picks that have some actual value to be used later. If not you need to get a player who can help us more right now.

    Just trading him for Mirotic straight up like Christian wants would be moronic.
    Can Mirotic not be traded by the draft? He's got a team option that needs to be exercised by Jun 29 per BBI. I'm sure Memphis or LAC would prefer an expiring they can waive over a guy like JV that has 2+ years left on his deal.

  16. #152
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    You realize there's penalties beyond "costs owners money" right? Like ones that can handcuff your basketball operations?

    To me it's not worth it being in the tax until you're in the top tier conversation for a title, JUUUUSST below it, or some other rare exceptions where you really need to keep core members together because you believe you'll be there soon. None of those apply to us.

    Dallas fans are interested in trading Noel for JV. We would want to swindle more from them seeing as he's a DNP-CD right now. Much higher defensive ceiling, fits into what we're doing, opens up cap wiggle room now and in the future, and gives more minutes to center Serge, Poeltl, Siakam.

    I hated the idea a few months ago. Starting to come around to it now
    Ibaka/Biyombo didn't work in Orlando. i suspect Noel/Ibaka wouldn't either. If trading for Noel I'd prefer to trade for the cap space and not the player.. if we can get another player/prospect/pick than it would be worth it.. but I doubt Dallas would want to give up that since they're probably rebuilding.

  17. #153
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    This is where I go ehhh....10 pts 7 reb with below average defense, and dropping. JV looks like the game is speeding around him, younger guys coming up behind him, and confidence dropping by the day. Maybe I'm reading too much into the last couple weeks hurting his confidence and he'll start to bounce back later, but "Playoffs vs Pacers" JV? He seems like he's further and further away until he's a distant sight right now
    You know how many players provide 10 and 7 in less than half the game (<24 MPG)? 3.

    In any case, it's not about production (though that is impressive production in limited minutes), it's about functionality. JV serves a purpose as an inside scorer, solid rebounder, screen setter and post defender that no other big on the team replicates right now (again, hopefully, with time, but not yet). Is there a hole on the roster at another position, or at his, that is bigger than the hole he would leave, and could be easily filled with a MLE type player? And if not, is it really worth saving 6M in cap hit to make that trade off?

    Or if the answer is that such a hole doesn't really exist, and we'll be leaning on the youth anyway, it's just a move to save money.

  18. #154
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    You're not getting 10-7 in 20mpg at center for the MLE.

    However it's debatable whether we'd want that with Ibaka and Poeltl in tow already. It is true that we might be able to get something more useful to our squad for the MLE.

  19. #155
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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    ok let me rephrase.

    I don't give a FUCK about MLSE saving money or not. And neither should anyone else. Most of you use Bell or Rogers, no? They make enough money.
    It's nice to know you don't care but, you know who does? Masai, no one is going to give up picks for JV. You keep saying that he should go to the bench. Well whose going to give up picks/prospects for a bench player? Need to get realistic on JV returns. This probably the only place that hold JV in such high regards. Masai will sell low on JV because he waited to long. I thought JV would improve his value with strong play. I thought being on the block all summer would motivate him to improve but, I was wrong. His value gets worse by the game it seems.



    Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Thu Dec 7th, 2017 at 01:48 AM.
    @Chr1st1anL

  20. #156
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    It's nice to know you don't care but, you know who does? Masai, no one is going to give up picks for JV. You keep saying that he should go to the bench. Well whose going to give up picks/prospects for a bench player? Need to get realistic on JV returns. This probably the only place that hold JV in such high regards. Masai will sell low on JV because he waited to long. I thought JV would improve his value with strong play. I thought being on the block all summer would motivate him to improve but, I was wrong. His value gets worse by the game it seems.



    You make a decent point actually. Mirotic is probably around the same type of value as JV. If we can't do better than this then fine, pull the trigger.

    Start Siakam-Ibaka. Run FVV or Wright/Powell/Miles/Mirotic/Poeltl off the bench. Mirotic gives the bench units another shooter to work with and his defense isn't too awful.


    Couple things I'd change though about your plan. I would pick up his team option unless he's cancerous for us during the season or we have a better realistic target with the MLE. That way we have a 12.5M expiring to work with in a trade next year, which along with Powell would allow us to bring back like $25M in a trade for a star. Plus we'd have our picks to work with as well. I'd also try to get at least a 2nd rounder out of Chicago with him.

  21. #157
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    Can JV and Powell be moved for cap space? How much could we clear by doing this?

    Is Paul George a possibility here next season is basically what I'm asking,

  22. #158
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    Quote LJ2 wrote: View Post
    Can JV and Powell be moved for cap space? How much could we clear by doing this?

    Is Paul George a possibility here next season is basically what I'm asking,
    The issue with JV will always be the difficulty of finding someone willing to take on his contract.

  23. #159
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    Quote LJ2 wrote: View Post
    Can JV and Powell be moved for cap space? How much could we clear by doing this?

    Is Paul George a possibility here next season is basically what I'm asking,
    No it's impossible for us to clear that much cap space.

    Edit: Even if you did dump JV and Powell; Lowry, DD, Ibaka alone are $80M next year. Salary cap is $108M. Not to mention all our young guys, roster charges, etc. It's impossible.

    I suppose the only way would be if we colluded like the Rockets did, got George to pick up his player option and then traded for him using Powell and other assets. That will never happen though.
    Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Thu Dec 7th, 2017 at 10:20 AM.

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  25. #160
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    I hope Boston is in the same boat as us then

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