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  • #31
    Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I completely disagree that this is a swing for the fences deal. It's not. It's an attempt to remain mediocre and convince fans that the Raptors have a chance at being competitive, which they don't.
    I used that term because it has been thrown around so much during BC's tenure. But also because every deal that has been portrayed as something significant, can be argued to have been nothing but "an attempt to remain mediocre and convince fans that the Raptors have a chance at being competitive, which they don't" as you say. So this would be nothing new.

    Right now I think I'd rather BC swing for the gutter and build up from there, rather than end up with a single or double that never has a chance to score.
    Two beer away from being two beers away.

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    • #32
      What is all this bad attitude talk coming from? I seem to remember reading he was a good locker room guy and that he has tremendous work ethic. I think you make this deal and you make it before the draft. I haven't hear of another idea where we trade two of our terrible contracts for an all star.
      "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

      -Churchill

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      • #33
        Mess wrote: View Post
        Right now I think I'd rather BC swing for the gutter and build up from there, rather than end up with a single or double that never has a chance to score.
        For every Portland there are a multitude of Kings and Hawks who struggle to no end for years and sometimes decades using this philosophy. Not to mention Colangelo has never shown himself to be the kind of guy who likes to tear it all down and start from scratch. The Lakers and Celtics are two of the most dominate teams of the last five years and neither of those two ripped it all down when they stumbled. They made great trades and added to that. Colangelo seems to always want to take this route. Don't count on a complete deconstruction... Especially seeing as he's on a contract year coming up.

        hateslosing wrote: View Post
        What is all this bad attitude talk coming from? I seem to remember reading he was a good locker room guy and that he has tremendous work ethic. I think you make this deal and you make it before the draft. I haven't hear of another idea where we trade two of our terrible contracts for an all star.
        It's stemming for the "Trailor Park Boys" gun play brain fart. Well, its extremely difficult for a Canadian citizen with a spotless record to acquire a restricted firearms license in Canada, let alone a foreigner with a record. Relax guys. You won't see another gun issue from Gil, I think the humiliation and lost millions has insured this.
        Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jun 2, 2010, 02:32 PM.

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        • #34
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          McGrady is good on defense?
          Both are bad ideas, I'm just saying I'd take Diaw over Arenas at this point.

          The only thing that would change my mind on this deal, is it might influence Bosh to re-sign.
          -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
          -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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          • #35
            Mess wrote: View Post
            I used that term because it has been thrown around so much during BC's tenure. But also because every deal that has been portrayed as something significant, can be argued to have been nothing but "an attempt to remain mediocre and convince fans that the Raptors have a chance at being competitive, which they don't" as you say. So this would be nothing new.

            Right now I think I'd rather BC swing for the gutter and build up from there, rather than end up with a single or double that never has a chance to score.
            To me, swinging for the fences is a deal that could backfire, but has the ability to have a huge payoff. Trading for Arenas is a trade that could backfire, but has little upside. Even if he turns back into an All-Star, he's not a long term solution, and would hinder the development of the younger players.

            hateslosing wrote: View Post
            What is all this bad attitude talk coming from? I seem to remember reading he was a good locker room guy and that he has tremendous work ethic. I think you make this deal and you make it before the draft. I haven't hear of another idea where we trade two of our terrible contracts for an all star.
            Arenas does have a tremendous work ethic, but he's always been walking a thin line with his attitude and personality. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but he's never appeared to me to be the most mature guy, and while the last problem may have woken him up, it's not a gamble I'm willing to take.

            Apollo wrote: View Post
            1. His legal issues have been sorted. The Raptors have doctors to study Arenas thoroughly. If the doctors say no, then don't pull the trigger.
            2. If #1 passes the test then #2 is a non-issue. Four years left to his contract and if he even makes it through two of those without a injury his deal begins to become more marketable to teams looking to do a rebuild in the near future or teams looking to cut costs in the near future. Jermaine O'Neal has a worse track record with injuries, an equally massive contract yet he was able to be moved twice before his contract expired. The first time it netted the team moving him a 1st rounder and PG who had decent value(at the time) and the second time it netted the team landing him an expiring contract.
            3. Arenas is a far better on D than anyone the Raptors had manning the point who doesn't go by the name Alvin Williams. Arenas has swag, he plays with pride, guts and determination.
            4. He doesn't have a big attitude other than on the court. Was he known for being a bully or something in the dressing room?
            5. BC is only going to get someone else's problem for his own. It's a matter of turning somebody else's problems into something useful and manageable. If Arenas is now healthy then he's just that.
            O'Neal wasn't able to be traded until he just had two years left on his contract, and you have to realize it will probably be a completely different climate financially than it has been. Just take a look at how few teams are currently projected to be over the cap next summer (2 teams). Obviously that will change, but it gives you an idea just how teams are changing their financial situation. There are far fewer players with horrible contracts, so far fewer teams looking to dump salary.

            Arenas has always had a bit of an eccentric personality, and while I don't think he was a bully in the locker room, he's also not the least bit of a leader, which is what you'd want from a guy coming in like Arenas. At this point, you need to be careful who you bring into the locker room. The Raptors have a lot of young guys and you need to make sure they have good, stable veterans to learn from.

            I do think it might prove difficult to try and trade Turkoglu, but Arenas should be the last option. His contract is awful, plain and simple, and in a league that isn't throwing money around anymore and may change after the new CBA, a headcase with a $17 million contract and four years left, a history of injuries and a felony on his record is probably not someone you want to bring in.

            As I said, there's just simply not enough upside to trade for him. Trading him for Curry and then waiving him would be far, far preferable. Hell, even trading for Vince would mean shortening the length of the contract.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • #36
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              They're not going to have cap space if Bosh stays. They're not going to have cap space if they do a S&T. MLSE said they're willing to spend above salary cap and so I say do the trade. Rid yourselves on two contracts around the same length for a player with more talent in his pinkie than the other two guys. Toronto is going to need a star player if Bosh leaves and they need a star player to convince him to stay for that matter. I'm not sure they can land a different talent on Gil's level. This is a time where Gil's market value is at its lowest, now's the time to buy. Hedo and Calderon together stink just as bad as Gil's contract but at least you know with Gil that if he's on the court he's going to do everything he can to be that max money guy you're paying for.
              you tokk the words right out of my mouth. getting gil would give us the best posiiblity of re-siging bosh and would improve our team. plus, getting rid of 2 worse caliber players and 1 guy who doesn't even want to be here.

              and you guys say no. um, ok if we don't bring artenas here than you can say by to bosh and we'll be in an even bigger hole than if we bring agent 0 here.

              plus, i am seeing a lot of you suggesting to bring brand here just so we can get that #2 pick and draft turner. that is an even more brutal plan then bringing gil here.

              agent 0 can still put up 20 points a game for you if you need him to. Brand simplay can't play anymore. he's more injury ridden then gill there fore it's a worse contract.

              plus, if we bring gil here and he actually plays well, we might be able to trade ihm to a team because he'll have 1 less year on his contract and will be playing better.

              you bring brand here and even if you draft turner, he won't be able to carry the team, we'll do poorly and there is no trading brand because nobody will ever want him because he can't play and get's paid way too much to be a bench warmer.

              end of story.

              nevermind changing our names to the huskies. we should start a petition to bring agent 0 here.
              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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              • #37
                LBF wrote: View Post
                you tokk the words right out of my mouth. getting gil would give us the best posiiblity of re-siging bosh and would improve our team. plus, getting rid of 2 worse caliber players and 1 guy who doesn't even want to be here.

                and you guys say no. um, ok if we don't bring artenas here than you can say by to bosh and we'll be in an even bigger hole than if we bring agent 0 here.

                plus, i am seeing a lot of you suggesting to bring brand here just so we can get that #2 pick and draft turner. that is an even more brutal plan then bringing gil here.

                agent 0 can still put up 20 points a game for you if you need him to. Brand simplay can't play anymore. he's more injury ridden then gill there fore it's a worse contract.

                plus, if we bring gil here and he actually plays well, we might be able to trade ihm to a team because he'll have 1 less year on his contract and will be playing better.

                you bring brand here and even if you draft turner, he won't be able to carry the team, we'll do poorly and there is no trading brand because nobody will ever want him because he can't play and get's paid way too much to be a bench warmer.

                end of story.

                nevermind changing our names to the huskies. we should start a petition to bring agent 0 here.
                Apparently, trading for Arenas is the only way to get rid of Turkoglu. It's also the only way to convince Bosh to stay. Fortunately, neither of those statements are likely correct.

                There have been numerous scenarios involving trading Turkolgu mentioned that don't involve bringing in a bigger and probably more immovable contract for a player with knee problems who could become a major distraction.

                And I'm not even sure trading for Arenas would be an attraction for Bosh. After bringing in Jermaine O'Neal and Turkoglu backfired, I would think Bosh is looking for less of a gamble to stay.

                And if Bosh ends up leaving, Arenas' contract could end up being more of an albatross around the Raptors neck than Turkoglu's would.

                As for trading for Brand, I'm not sure you understand. The point is not to trade for Brand but to get Evan Turner, who could end up being a very special player and someone the franchise can build around. Brand is simply the price you pay to get him. If Brand regains his form, all the better, but at the very least, he's going to be a good locker room guy who has a year less on his contract than Arenas.

                Obviously it depends on how good you think Turner will be. I think he will end up being a special player who can be the future of the franchise. If Bosh leaves, the team is going to lose anyway, even with Arenas. Why not make the future a little brighter by getting a guy you can build around like Turner?

                Trading for Arenas would only be a success if a) he regains his form, b) isn't a distraction c) doesn't take shots away from the younger players like DeRozan and b) Bosh stays. That's far to many variables to have for a deal that could backfire so badly. It's all about risk vs reward, and the reward isn't big enough to outweigh the risk.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • #38
                  Moved your thread topic to here which we discussed the other day.

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                  • #39
                    Arenas is selfish, hes too risky, ball hog, not a team player, etc etc. People forget this guy turned down sixteen million dollars from Washington when they offered him the max so the Wiz could have financial flexibility down the line. This guy has gotten a bad rap for obvious reasons but the dude flat out has passion and can still ball. Whos the last guy in the raptors who had the same passion as Gilbert and the skill set to back it up? This team is in dire need of a player who can fire up his teamates and motivate this lackluster group who could be (and has been) out played by d leaguers. Gilbert has that swagger about him and maybe we would see guys like Andrea get fired up instd of that mopey open mouth retarded look he gives everytime he makes a shot.

                    Anyways the point is it is about risk and reward, but realistically the guy is 30 in 2 years if im not mistaken, only makes like 7 mill on average more than turkoglu, and his upside could potentially be franchise changing. Even Doug Smith said he would personally do this trade during his chat blog thing, and if theres ever been someone close to being the Jesus Christ of raptor coverage, its gotta be him.

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                    • #40
                      Spilak wrote: View Post
                      Arenas is selfish, hes too risky, ball hog, not a team player, etc etc. People forget this guy turned down sixteen million dollars from Washington when they offered him the max so the Wiz could have financial flexibility down the line. This guy has gotten a bad rap for obvious reasons but the dude flat out has passion and can still ball. Whos the last guy in the raptors who had the same passion as Gilbert and the skill set to back it up? This team is in dire need of a player who can fire up his teamates and motivate this lackluster group who could be (and has been) out played by d leaguers. Gilbert has that swagger about him and maybe we would see guys like Andrea get fired up instd of that mopey open mouth retarded look he gives everytime he makes a shot.

                      Anyways the point is it is about risk and reward, but realistically the guy is 30 in 2 years if im not mistaken, only makes like 7 mill on average more than turkoglu, and his upside could potentially be franchise changing. Even Doug Smith said he would personally do this trade during his chat blog thing, and if theres ever been someone close to being the Jesus Christ of raptor coverage, its gotta be him.
                      If the guy turned down $16 million, then please explain to me why he still has $80 million left on his contract over the next 4 years?

                      Doug Smith is a pretty good journalist, but I couldn't give a crap what he thinks. This is also the same guy who didn't think Amir Johnson was athletic. I've agreed with him just as much as I've disagreed with him. I'm also not Christian, so if he's the Jesus Christ of anything, it doesn't mean anything to me.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #41
                        Trading for Arenas is just digging a bigger hole for the Raptors to climb into.
                        nbaroundtable

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                        • #42
                          Not sure how. Unless they let Bosh walk they're probably going to be capped for the next three or four seasons. If doctors say Arenas is 100% and there is little risk of re-injury then I don't know how it's digging a deeper hole. Especially if they're moving two bad contract in exchange for him.

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                          • #43
                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            Not sure how. Unless they let Bosh walk they're probably going to be capped for the next three or four seasons. If doctors say Arenas is 100% and there is little risk of re-injury then I don't know how it's digging a deeper hole. Especially if they're moving two bad contract in exchange for him.
                            Two bad contracts are a lot easier to get rid of than one bigger one.

                            And they'd be digging themselves into a deeper hole because Arenas could hinder the development of the younger player, which if Bosh leaves, is the most important thing. A team that is rebuilding shouldn't have a player like Arenas on it.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • #44
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              If the guy turned down $16 million, then please explain to me why he still has $80 million left on his contract over the next 4 years?

                              Doug Smith is a pretty good journalist, but I couldn't give a crap what he thinks. This is also the same guy who didn't think Amir Johnson was athletic. I've agreed with him just as much as I've disagreed with him. I'm also not Christian, so if he's the Jesus Christ of anything, it doesn't mean anything to me.

                              Well His original contract was supposed to be six years at 127 million and he turned that down for 111 million instead. So he was still destined to make a shitload of money but I cant recall more than a handful of players who have ever turned down salary in any professional sport. So yea he is still owed a lot of money, but under Arenas's guidance the WIz agreed to pay him 2 mill less a season...just a testament to the fact hes not a douchebag like ppl paint him to be.

                              I disagree with Doug Smith a lot too, but when you say you don't give a crap what he thinks, I'm a bit skeptical. The guy's been covering the raptors forever and has a ton of insight and connections that give him a more informed opinion than just about anyone on this blog. Not sayin that makes him right every single time, but having him agree with your opinion definetly doesn't hurt your arguement. And the Jesus thing was a sarcastic joke, I'm not actually religious nor do I think Doug is the second coming of Christ. Maybe if I used a non religious name and said Doug was the Chuck Norris of raptors coverage we could get down to the facts of this thread. That is Gilbert is risky, but not a dbag and a change of scenery could do him well. Also his contract is realistically not an overwhelming burden given that we could be on the hook for 3 more years of turk and his contract, plus arenas is 28 and way more likely to regain a near allstar form.
                              Last edited by Spilak; Fri Jun 4, 2010, 09:15 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Spilak wrote: View Post
                                Well His original contract was supposed to be six years at 127 million and he turned that down for 111 million instead. So he was still destined to make a shitload of money but I cant recall more than a handful of players who have ever turned down salary in any professional sport. So yea he is still owed a lot of money, but under Arenas's guidance the WIz agreed to pay him 2 mill less a season...just a testament to the fact hes not a douchebag like ppl paint him to be.

                                I disagree with Doug Smith a lot too, but when you say you don't give a crap what he thinks, I'm a bit skeptical. The guy's been covering the raptors forever and has a ton of insight and connections that give him a more informed opinion than just about anyone on this blog. Not sayin that makes him right every single time, but having him agree with your opinion definetly doesn't hurt your arguement. And the Jesus thing was a sarcastic joke, I'm not actually religious nor do I think Doug is the second coming of Christ. Maybe if I used a non religious name and said Doug was the Chuck Norris of raptors coverage we could get down to the facts of this thread. That is Gilbert is risky, but not a dbag and a change of scenery could do him well. Also his contract is realistically not an overwhelming burden given that we could be on the hook for 3 more years of turk and his contract, plus arenas is 28 and way more likely to regain a near allstar form.
                                I never said he's a douchebag. I'm sure he's got very good qualities and can be a very nice guy. And I'm also sure he really wants to win. But he's never shown to be very mature or make the best choices, he hasn't been healthy in three years and he's got a massive contract that finishes in four years paying him $22 million. There are just too many reasons not to trade for him.

                                As for Doug Smith, I think he's got a very informed opinion and knows more about basketball and the Raptors than most people around here, but he's one guy, and I put as much stock in his opinion as I do in other sports writers. It's great that he would agree to the trade, but in the end it means nothing.

                                And I was also using sarcasm in reference to the Jesus joke. Don't worry, I understood it.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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