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Raptors Ink Amir Johnson To A Five-year, $34 Million Deal

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  • #31
    Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Amir is coming off a 3 year contract after spending his first two with the Piston, and his Bird Rights would have been transferred when he was traded. The Raptors would not have had to use the MLE to sign Amir.
    Do you mean the full Larry Bird exception or the Early Bird exception

    From the NBA Salary Cap FAQ (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q25):

    The basic idea is that a player must play for the same team for three seasons for his team to gain Bird rights (two seasons for Early Bird rights). It can be a single three-year contract, a series of three one-year contracts, or any combination that adds up to three seasons (two for Early Bird). However there are a number of complications:

    [...]
    • When a player is traded, his new team inherits his Bird rights. For example, if a player signs a three-year contract, plays two and a half seasons with that team, and is traded at the trade deadline in the third season, then his new team owns full Bird rights following the third season.
    • The first season of the three-year tenure doesn't have to be a full season. If a player is waived and signs with another team in year one, then plays with his new team for two additional seasons, his new team will have full Bird rights following the third season.
    I realize that either way, the Raptors probably have his Bird rights (full or Early) but I'm a stickler for details and don't want to be confused in the future.

    Comment


    • #32
      If he gets the league max 10.5% annual increase his salary structure could look like this

      2010-11---$5.5
      2011-12----6.1.
      2012-13----6.7
      2013-14----7.5
      2014-15----8.2
      -----------------------------
      Total $34.0 million
      ======================
      Some comparisons to PF bench players salaries in 2010-11

      1. Varejao $7.0
      2. T. Thomas 6.2
      3. D. Gooden 6.4
      4. Anderson 4.0
      5. C. Frye 6.0
      Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

      Memories some so sweet, indeed

      Larger Photo of the avatar



      “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
      Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

      Comment


      • #33
        I would have to say that Amir's 32M is better value than Gooden AND Frye... I'm happy with this signing, we need to keep the players that show heart!

        Comment


        • #34
          Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

          I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
          http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

          But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

          According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

          Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
          Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
          C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
          R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
          Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
          Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

          What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

          Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws

          Comment


          • #35
            Also, could please not compare the deals to what Gooden got because Milwakee valued scoring very highly and thus had to overpay for it (because the team was already solid in terms of rebounding and defense).

            Better analysis dictates that we should value the performance based on the production and how replacable it is. I just wanted to prove that this is the case for Amir Johnson

            Comment


            • #36
              Sorry, 34M...

              Comment


              • #37
                dino gunners wrote: View Post
                Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

                I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
                http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

                But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

                According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

                Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
                Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
                C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
                R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
                Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
                Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

                What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

                Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws
                If you go here you will see that Amir ranked #1 in the NBA in defensive rating.

                http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

                Also go here to see his positive affect on a teams defense

                http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR9.HTM

                The stats on both of those sites show that the Raptors were a significantly better team defensively with him on the court than off. These are better stats in my opinion that the number at BasketballReference.com. This number is affected greatly by the teams overall defense so Amir suffered here because of being on the Raptors.

                The two sights that i linked show the difference in points allowed and opponents field goal percentage when he was on the court vs off the court. These numbers for him have been consistent over the last three years and both the Pistons and Raptors were significantly better defensive teams with him on the court then when he was not.

                Also go here for all kinds of Johnson stats. It is my Johnson blog

                http://nba-25-15.blogspot.com/
                Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri Jul 2, 2010, 12:17 AM.
                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                Memories some so sweet, indeed

                Larger Photo of the avatar



                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                Comment


                • #38
                  overfuckingpaid

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Quixotic wrote: View Post
                    A MLE deal can be up to 5 years, and the amount does seem to match.

                    What I'm actually a bit confused about is whether the Raptors have Amir's full Bird rights. For a team to gain full Bird rights, that player needs to have played for the same team for THREE consecutive seasons without being a free agent or being waived. Examples illustrate this being done with 2 full seasons and a half season before being traded, which lead me to now think we don't have his full Bird rights. We either have his Early Bird rights (I don't know of Early Bird rights follow the player the same was full Bird rights do), which does seem to work as well, or we just used our MLE on Amir (Bosh's cap hold puts us over the cap).

                    Larry Bird Exception - max salary limited by years of service, 10.5% raises, 6 years max
                    Early Bird Exception - max salary of either 175% of previous salary or just the average player salary, 10.5% raises, 5 years max
                    Mid Level Exception - max salary of the average player salary, 8% raises, 5 years max

                    As you can see both the MLE and the Early Bird are pretty similar.
                    it is most likely that his bird rights were traded to the raptors since it was a sign and trade. the cba sort of says in my opinion that playing 3 years for a team gives that player`s team, full bird rights and the bird rights are likely traded with the sign and trade scenarios.

                    an analogy is if rubio decides not to play for the timberwolves which is likely, they can trade him and his bird rights in a sign and trade to another team. teams still own players bird rights if they play outside the nba in lower leagues like europe and the d-league like josh childress with the hawks or amir when he was in the d-league affiliate of the detroit pistons possibly. bird rights can be renounced as in the delfino deal to take advantage of the cba fact that teams`own free agents can be signed over the cap to sign other free aents before signing their own free agent.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      dino gunners wrote: View Post
                      Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

                      I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
                      http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

                      But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

                      According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

                      Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
                      Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
                      C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
                      R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
                      Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
                      Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

                      What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

                      Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws
                      i support your opinion that his skills could be replicated in the draft. i don`t see kevin pritchard or sam presti paying amir that kind of money(sam presti probably will not be paying ibaka(solid defensively than Amir) more than $5m per) and portland, okc are small market teams like us that struggle signing free agents. i will continue to say it that bc has bad negotiating skills.the speed with which the early deals in this year`s free aency were done smirks of overpaying(rudy gay, gooden and yes amir).After this free agency, I would not be surprised to see a lot of Sean May cap killer contracts that will be grandfathered in the next cba.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        A bit too much considering we havent even seen how he plays when averaging 30 - 35 minutes a game and i honestly think ed davis would have higher production than amir with those minutes plus hes an inch taller and 15 pounds heavier and a lot cheaper Amirs a good guy and seems to appreciate the city but 7 million is too much for a role player.
                        Last edited by FromTOtoVAN; Fri Jul 2, 2010, 01:39 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          dino gunners wrote: View Post
                          Tim W, i have to disagree with you.

                          I am a big believer in advanced stats and the contribution to wins besides scoring. But this doesnt justify overpaying for these other skills. I really liked what Amir brings to the table, hell i even said that when the trade went down:
                          http://dinogunners.blogspot.com/2009...valuation.html

                          But he is good value at 3-4 million/season, not 7. Also, it is not a good deal when you are rebuilding and want all available cap space.

                          According to basketball-reference, some comparisons:

                          Johnson: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 124, DRTG 110 TS%: .639
                          Collison: TRB%: 16.1, ORTG 120, DRTG 105 TS%: .616
                          C.Anderson: TRB%: 16.5, ORTG 126, DRTG 103 TS%: .631
                          R. Lopez: TRB%: 15.6, ORTG 123, DRTG 110 TS%: .621
                          Brockman: TRB%: 19.2%, ORTG: 124 DRTG 110 TS%: .564
                          Penegraph: TRB%: 15%, ORTG: 130 DRTG 105 TS%: .705

                          What I am trying to show is that the skills Johnson provides are the most replacable via the draft. Signing players to long-term contracts negates the value to wins they provide in the first place because you are overpaying for that. Also, I actively tried to pick players who were undrafted/late in the lottery or draft to show how plentiful this type of player is. Players like Varejo, Horford, and the Gasol brothers easily post better stats than Johnson.

                          Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws
                          I'm a big believer in watching players play, and what I see in Johnson is not nearly as easily replicated as many of you seem to think. Yes, you can get a player with hustle, or that rebounds or that helps on defense or that scores efficiently. Pops was a high energy guys who could rebound, but was awful on defense. Reggie Evans is a fantastic rebounder and hustle guy, but he hurts you on offense and isn't the greatest defender. Chris Andersen is another high energy guy who blocks shots and rebounds, but actually isn't very good at man to man defense. Most guys like Amir Johnson have a huge flaw that hurts the team if they play too many minutes.

                          Varejao is actually a good comparison. In his third season, which last season basically was for Johnson, since he barely played his first two, Varejao had very similar stats to Johnson. And they are making about the same.

                          Horford is an All-Star, as is Pau Gasol and Marc Gasol nearly was. I'm not sure what they have to do with this discussion.

                          What people seem to be forgetting is that Amir is basically going into his fourth season and is only 23. He played a total of 11 games in his first two. Right now, Johnson may not be worth it, but it's a good bet he will continue to improve. He's a hard worker, great teammate and good player.


                          Quixotic wrote: View Post
                          Do you mean the full Larry Bird exception or the Early Bird exception

                          From the NBA Salary Cap FAQ (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q25):



                          I realize that either way, the Raptors probably have his Bird rights (full or Early) but I'm a stickler for details and don't want to be confused in the future.
                          Since Johnson was with Detroit for four years, I think it's safe to assume they had his full Bird rights.

                          FromTOtoVAN wrote: View Post
                          A bit too much considering we havent even seen how he plays when averaging 30 - 35 minutes a game and i honestly think ed davis would have higher production than amir with those minutes plus hes an inch taller and 15 pounds heavier and a lot cheaper Amirs a good guy and seems to appreciate the city but 7 million is too much for a role player.
                          Davis is also on a rookie contract. If you want to keep getting guys who will be on their rookie contract, you can do that, but if you want to win, eventually you're going to have to pay them. And while johnson hasn't averaged 30 mpg yet, Davis has even played a minute, yet. At this point, the Raptors are going to want Amir to probably start and Davis can back up the PF and C positions.

                          smushmush wrote: View Post
                          i support your opinion that his skills could be replicated in the draft. i don`t see kevin pritchard or sam presti paying amir that kind of money(sam presti probably will not be paying ibaka(solid defensively than Amir) more than $5m per) and portland, okc are small market teams like us that struggle signing free agents. i will continue to say it that bc has bad negotiating skills.the speed with which the early deals in this year`s free aency were done smirks of overpaying(rudy gay, gooden and yes amir).After this free agency, I would not be surprised to see a lot of Sean May cap killer contracts that will be grandfathered in the next cba.
                          If you can find a big man guy who doesn't have a fatal flaw and who hustles, rebounds, plays defense and scores efficiently in the draft, I'm guessing you'll be drafting in the lottery. Of course, you can find an entire starting unit in the draft, too. That's where EVERYONE starts. Eventually, though, you're going to have to start paying for them unless you just want to keep turning over your roster.

                          Pritchard is the same guy who tried to sign Turkoglu for $10 million and would have if Turkoglu hadn't changed his mind. And he paid LaMarcus Aldridge nearly twice what the Raptors are paying Amir. And remember that Sam Presti is the guy who nearly traded for Tyson Chandler, who's also making twice that of Amir, but only backed out after Chandler failed a physical. Make no mistake, all teams are looking for big men who can rebound, play defense and score efficiently.

                          When Drew Gooden, who has been on 8 teams in 8 years, barely plays defense and is renowned for making bone headed decisions, signs a 5 year $32 million contract, it's really hard to say that Amir is really all that overpaid.

                          Of course, if Colangelo had lost Amir to someone else, I'm sure you'd be criticizing either him or MLSE for being too cheap. You can't have it both ways.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • #43
                            Tim, I have no idea why I decided to arbitrarily count only from the third season (when he got his new contract) onward. LOL

                            And FromTOtoVAN, don't be surprised if Amir seems taller than Davis when you finally see them together.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Wow, soooo over paid. Once again, BC over paid a player.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                STEAL OF A DEAL. (Not now but definately later)

                                Amir Johnson is my favorite raptor at this moment, I think when given minutes he will be able to produce much better numbers than Andrea. He's already shown this on the defensive end. Since Bargnani got a massive extension last summer, he rarely shows his worth. Im not raggin on the guy but we need to be shown hes worth the price. Most people tend to forget defence wins games. Now with Bosh potentially out of the picture. The future looks bright for Amir, and the Raptors organization. Nevertheless, for what hes put in this past season, the output shouldn't warrant this type of contract. Im think BC believes that this contract will pay off down the road. His Defensive ratings have shown he has ridiculous upside at only 23. Only time will tell if this contract is good or bad.

                                I have a feeling most of the people here saying he is way overpaid are going to turn into those saying that this deal was a steal. He is going to be a starter for this team for the next few years. The Johnson era begins.
                                We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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