Jose vs. Jack

[saints91]

Honestly I like Jose better as a player and a teammate and a person to watch. Great passer, ball handler, loves being a Raptor and wants to get better. He's not that old, and it is possible to improve your defense over an off season. I don't remember people complaining about his defense before this year. I realize he won't be a defensive stopper, but he can improve. I think his good outweighs his bad points.

As for not having to worry about our offense? We just lost 24pts a game... he is a guy that can bridge some of that gap.

[Tim W.]

Everyone who seriously thinks that JC is the best fit for this team is out right crazy and lying to themselves. Were trying to fix our defence, not our offence. Jose is a bad thorn in the foot of the raptors. Sure he can get the ball to where its needed but when it comes to the other side of the court. He can't hold his own. Which to me is very alarming. Jack is a better overall player no doubt. He shot better from the three, he also had a better FT % Other than that their numbers are identical points wise. So why would you want to keep a player who doesn't show his worth in value? A player who is incapable of being selfless (bringing up the captain issue) Who here really deep down can say they'd rather have Jose over Jarret because Jose is a better player? Not me thats for sure. Get rid of him.

Actually, there are very good reason why Calderon is better to keep than Jack. I've already gone over them, but you don't seem to agree with them. Either way, here they are, again...

Calderon was one of only three players who consistently had a positive impact on the team when he was on the floor, even with his lack of defense. If you want the continued development of guys like Amir, Weems and DeRozan, Calderon is most definitely the one you want to keep. He knows where and how to get the ball to those guys to give them the best chance to score.

Jack is a nice player who can create off the dribble and pass the ball, but he doesn't make anyone around him better. Amir looked so good when he did because he was playing with Calderon. When the offense stumbled, Jack was usually on the floor.

With improved defense, Calderon's defense will certainly not be as noticeable or as much of a detriment to the team. On a team that can't shoot, a player that can't shoot won't look very good. Same goes for a guy who can't defend. I've said it before, Parker isn't a good defender, but because the Spurs are a good defensive team, it doesn't really matter.

Jack's contract makes him much easier to trade, and the likelihood of getting something of value back by trading Jack is much more likely than by trading Calderon. So obviously Jack has more trade value.

Jack has been known to be moody when the team doesn't do well, which is what we can mostly likely expect next season. Calderon has never hung his head or displayed any issues in this regard. In terms of team morale, Calderon is the better one to keep.

The only reason to want Jack back is because you're sick of Calderon, and that's not a very good reason.

I appreciate your point, but this isn't really about Jose or Jack. This is about Jose or Turk and who distributes the ball. Jack is cheaper, he can play two positions and he seems to get along with the other young players on team. Keeping him is a no-brainer.

So your choice really is to unload Turk or unload Calderon and see what either one of them gets us. My personal opinion is that we've seen what Calderon can do, so now let's see what Turk can do.

If you unload Calderon, the point goes through Turk. If you unload Jack, then you MUST unload Turk as well because keeping him without letting him run the point is.... well.... pointless.

Trade one instead of two and let the young guys develop. Bye bye Jose.

There are three real problems with keeping Turkoglu. The first is that he doesn't want to be in Toronto, and even if he changed his mind, he's not a great veteran example for the young players. He's not a hard worker, and will sulk if things don't go his way. He doesn't have a great attitude to help the young players.

The second problem is that he needs the offense to run through him to be effective. It will be harder for players like DeRozan to develop if the offense needs to be catered to Turkoglu.

The third problem is that Turkoglu is over 30. He's most likely only going to decline, so it's better to trade him sooner rather than later.

The main focus needs to be the future of the team. Keeping Calderon over Turkoglu is better for the team in the long term.

[Tim W.]

I realize Ellis doesn't play defense either, but he's alot better than Jose on the offense end and can create his own shot. As for Al Jefferson, Amir Johnson is not the replacement for Chris Bosh

You're trying to get bandaids to cover up broken bones. Yes, Ellis or Jefferson will be able to replace Bosh's scoring, but the fact is that neither player will make the Raptors a better team or make them a contender. It's an immediate fix that doesn't address the overall problem or go to the long term solution, and unfortunately why Toronto is in the position it is in right now. Same with Cleveland.

No one needs to "replace" Chris Bosh. They need to restructure over a period of time in order to turn his leaving into a positive. Simply trying to replace his scoring will only get you a team that is not quite as good as it was with Bosh. And with Bosh, they missed the playoffs.

its funny you say that b/c last season when the raps started their turn around and started winning games (mid december) thats exactly when jose went out and jack took over...

here's a game log:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...Xpan6ccL1BPaB4

raps went on two 5 game winning streaks with jose wearing a suit or coming off the bench and jack starting

If you want to look more closely at things, you'll notice that there were many games where the Raptors struggled mightily in the first quarter, Only to be saved when Calderon came into the game. And later on in the season, the team played better when Calderon replaced Jack in the starting lineup.

There were quite a number of reasons that the team went on the winning streak you pointed out. Arsenalist mentioned one, but it was also around that time that the coaches implemented a new defense, the new players happened to gel and a number of other reasons. Statistically, and anecdotally, the team did better when Calderon was running point than when Jack was.

[Ambidextrious]

Actually, there are very good reason why Calderon is better to keep than Jack. I've already gone over them, but you don't seem to agree with them. Either way, here they are, again...

Calderon was one of only three players who consistently had a positive impact on the team when he was on the floor, even with his lack of defense. If you want the continued development of guys like Amir, Weems and DeRozan, Calderon is most definitely the one you want to keep. He knows where and how to get the ball to those guys to give them the best chance to score.

Jack is a nice player who can create off the dribble and pass the ball, but he doesn't make anyone around him better. Amir looked so good when he did because he was playing with Calderon. When the offense stumbled, Jack was usually on the floor.

With improved defense, Calderon's defense will certainly not be as noticeable or as much of a detriment to the team. On a team that can't shoot, a player that can't shoot won't look very good. Same goes for a guy who can't defend. I've said it before, Parker isn't a good defender, but because the Spurs are a good defensive team, it doesn't really matter.

Jack's contract makes him much easier to trade, and the likelihood of getting something of value back by trading Jack is much more likely than by trading Calderon. So obviously Jack has more trade value.

Jack has been known to be moody when the team doesn't do well, which is what we can mostly likely expect next season. Calderon has never hung his head or displayed any issues in this regard. In terms of team morale, Calderon is the better one to keep.

The only reason to want Jack back is because you're sick of Calderon, and that's not a very good reason.



There are three real problems with keeping Turkoglu. The first is that he doesn't want to be in Toronto, and even if he changed his mind, he's not a great veteran example for the young players. He's not a hard worker, and will sulk if things don't go his way. He doesn't have a great attitude to help the young players.

The second problem is that he needs the offense to run through him to be effective. It will be harder for players like DeRozan to develop if the offense needs to be catered to Turkoglu.

The third problem is that Turkoglu is over 30. He's most likely only going to decline, so it's better to trade him sooner rather than later.

The main focus needs to be the future of the team. Keeping Calderon over Turkoglu is better for the team in the long term.

Lets agree to disagree on the first point regarding Jose. All im saying is dude has been the reason why this team screwed up. I hope you remember that ill advised pass to Bosh, against Nets in the playoffs. What a heartbreak.

[rev20002]

You're trying to get bandaids to cover up broken bones. Yes, Ellis or Jefferson will be able to replace Bosh's scoring, but the fact is that neither player will make the Raptors a better team or make them a contender. It's an immediate fix that doesn't address the overall problem or go to the long term solution, and unfortunately why Toronto is in the position it is in right now. Same with Cleveland.

No one needs to "replace" Chris Bosh. They need to restructure over a period of time in order to turn his leaving into a positive. Simply trying to replace his scoring will only get you a team that is not quite as good as it was with Bosh. And with Bosh, they missed the playoffs.



.

This is the standard answer in sports and especially in Toronto sports history. Lose your best player and then rebuild. Same old story, different day, different year, different sport. I'm with BC, screw the restructure. Lets compete for a playoff spot and put the best team available on the floor.

I agree, we don't have to replace Bosh, but if a guy like Jefferson is on the market and the cards line up, I don't see the harm in considering it.

[karim_nasir]

if you want to look more closely at things, you'll notice that there were many games where the raptors struggled mightily in the first quarter, only to be saved when calderon came into the game. And later on in the season, the team played better when calderon replaced jack in the starting lineup.

bahahahahahaah