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Why The Raptors Should Keep Calderon Unless

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  • #16
    jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Keep Calderon. Move Jack. Having both Barbosa and Jack is redundant.
    that's like saying having two centres who can rebound and block shots is redundant...

    you probably think having manu ginobli and tony parker is redundant

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    • #17
      How was jose in 08-09? this can give us a better picture of how he plays with starter minutes. If i remember correctly he had a hamstring and calf injury that kept him out for long periods of the season. the guy is just plain soft. Almost as soft as Bosh.
      We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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      • #18
        vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
        that's like saying having two centres who can rebound and block shots is redundant...

        you probably think having manu ginobli and tony parker is redundant
        Parker and Ginobili play different positions and bring completely different games to the court. They actually compliment one another. The point is that both Barbosa and Jack are combo guards who shoot first and pass second, and are best suited to a bench role. What the team needs is a pass first PG to compliment one of them.

        And if a team had two backup centers who both blocked shots and played defense, that WOULD BE redundant, especially if the team lacked a starting center.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • #19
          Tim W. wrote: View Post
          Parker and Ginobili play different positions and bring completely different games to the court. They actually compliment one another. The point is that both Barbosa and Jack are combo guards who shoot first and pass second, and are best suited to a bench role. What the team needs is a pass first PG to compliment one of them.

          And if a team had two backup centers who both blocked shots and played defense, that WOULD BE redundant, especially if the team lacked a starting center.
          describe how parker and ginobli's games compliment each other b/c none of them are pass first...

          jj and barbosa play different positions...

          if guards who are shoot first pass second are suited for the bench...plz explain russell westbrook, chauncey billups, tyreke evans

          have you ever heard of a guard that can actually PASS OR SHOOT...depending on what the D gives him ??

          hmm if u had 2 centres who could rebound and block (Orlando Magic), umm is that so redundant and ohhh nooo we hav to trade one of them and get a center who cant rebound or block just to avoid being redundant...

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          • #20
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            Because Calderon is a pass first PG, he's the better player to play with developing players who need shots.
            yea im sure developing players who are trying hard on D, will love playing with calderon who always gets beat, forcing someone else to have to help and leave their man open... and after getting blown own every game the young players will really have a great attitude and committment to wana play in toronto...

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            • #21
              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
              describe how parker and ginobli's games compliment each other b/c none of them are pass first...
              Well, if you watch the Spurs, you see that both Parker can play off the ball or run the offense, depending on their roll.

              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
              jj and barbosa play different positions...
              They're both 6'2 backup combo guards who are really too small to guard SGs.

              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
              if guards who are shoot first pass second are suited for the bench...plz explain russell westbrook, chauncey billups, tyreke evans
              They are better players than Jack and Barbosa. Westbrook and Billups also actually have the ability to run an offense well and make their teammates better. The jury's still out in that regard for Evans.

              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
              have you ever heard of a guard that can actually PASS OR SHOOT...depending on what the D gives him ??
              So you are debating the existence of a pass-first point guard and shoot-first PG? Some guards will look to score first, and if it's not there, pass. Other guards will look to set people up first and foremost, but score if needed.

              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
              hmm if u had 2 centres who could rebound and block (Orlando Magic), umm is that so redundant and ohhh nooo we hav to trade one of them and get a center who cant rebound or block just to avoid being redundant...
              You need to read more carefully. I said 2 backup centers. Last time I checked, Dwight Howard was a starter. Besides, the center position is a bit different from the PG position. You want at least one person on the team who is going to make others better, and that usually falls to the PG. If you've ever played basketball, you know that having the guy who brings up the ball also being the guy who takes the most shots can often be detrimental to the on court chemistry of the team.
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              • #22
                vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                yea im sure developing players who are trying hard on D, will love playing with calderon who always gets beat, forcing someone else to have to help and leave their man open... and after getting blown own every game the young players will really have a great attitude and committment to wana play in toronto...
                I guess no one wants to play with Nash, either, do they?
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • #23
                  heinz57 wrote: View Post
                  bargs is significantly better at defending his position than calderon is..

                  i like calderon... but the clap in your face defense is almost as infuriating as jamario moon jacking up threes
                  Man, nothing was more annoying than that

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                  • #24
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    I guess no one wants to play with Nash, either, do they?
                    ok obviously no point replying to your posts... yea nash n calderon are on the same level

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                    • #25
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      So I'm guessing you want Bargnani out of town, as well. Right?
                      Whats with you and bargnani? From what I know dirk isn't that special on defense either. He just has a good cast around him which specializes in defense. Raptors need to do the same... having 1 player in your starting line up who isn't so great in defense doesn't mean you suck. Andrea is good, he has a better offensive game than bosh imo (shooting wise).

                      As for calderon I understand he is a great pg but I would rather want us getting an elite pg who can run this team for many years to come. So if we trade calderon...its not the end of the world.

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                      • #26
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        Well, if you watch the Spurs, you see that both Parker can play off the ball or run the offense, depending on their roll.

                        They're both 6'2 backup combo guards who are really too small to guard SGs.

                        They are better players than Jack and Barbosa. Westbrook and Billups also actually have the ability to run an offense well and make their teammates better. The jury's still out in that regard for Evans.

                        So you are debating the existence of a pass-first point guard and shoot-first PG? Some guards will look to score first, and if it's not there, pass. Other guards will look to set people up first and foremost, but score if needed.

                        You need to read more carefully. I said 2 backup centers. Last time I checked, Dwight Howard was a starter. Besides, the center position is a bit different from the PG position. You want at least one person on the team who is going to make others better, and that usually falls to the PG. If you've ever played basketball, you know that having the guy who brings up the ball also being the guy who takes the most shots can often be detrimental to the on court chemistry of the team.
                        wow so you're saying barbosa n jack need the ball in their hands all the time ? really ?

                        jj n barbosa r actually 6'3

                        jj averaged 27 mins a game and took 8.2 shots
                        calderon averaged 26 mins and took 8.4 shots

                        wow... waht a chugger JJ is

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                        • #27
                          vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                          ok obviously no point replying to your posts... yea nash n calderon are on the same level
                          Calderon and Nash are not on the same level, but both are pass first PGs that are also below average on the defensive end. You made the assertion that players wouldn't want to play with Calderon because he would make them work harder on defense to make up for his deficiencies. I countered with the argument that it would mean that people wouldn't want to play with Nash.


                          Raptors wrote: View Post
                          Whats with you and bargnani? From what I know dirk isn't that special on defense either. He just has a good cast around him which specializes in defense. Raptors need to do the same... having 1 player in your starting line up who isn't so great in defense doesn't mean you suck. Andrea is good, he has a better offensive game than bosh imo (shooting wise).

                          As for calderon I understand he is a great pg but I would rather want us getting an elite pg who can run this team for many years to come. So if we trade calderon...its not the end of the world.
                          Dirk isn't special on defense, but he's a much better (and always has been) better than Bargnani, and he's also always been a better rebounder. There's a big difference between an average defender, which Dirk is, and a poor defender, which Bargnani is.

                          Besides, considering that Dallas has consistently underperformed in the playoffs, including losing in the first round as a #1 seed and as a #2 seed, I don't know if Dallas is really the team you want to emulate.

                          Personally, I would LOVE to get an elite PG for the Raptors, but considering that's probably not going to happen this year, I'd like to stick with Calderon if possible. That's not to say I'd be completely against trading him, if it was good for the team. I was actually in favour of the aborted Charlotte trade.


                          vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                          wow so you're saying barbosa n jack need the ball in their hands all the time ? really ?

                          jj n barbosa r actually 6'3

                          jj averaged 27 mins a game and took 8.2 shots
                          calderon averaged 26 mins and took 8.4 shots

                          wow... waht a chugger JJ is
                          I never once said that they needed the ball in their hands all the time, and if you're going to enter into a debate with me, please don't start making stuff up.

                          Jack and Barbosa are listed at 6'3, but it doesn't mean they are 6'3. Besides, Jack didn't seem to have much luck guarding SGs, did he?

                          And I believe the term is chucker. A chugger would be someone who drinks a lot. If you're going to bring attitude to your replies, make sure you get the terminology correct.
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                          • #28
                            We're 4 deep at PG, with Barbosa and Jack being essentially the same, just that one's quicker and the other's a better facilitator. I'm against keeping Calderon as a back-up, simply because his salary is a waste of cap space, and the longer we wait 'til we trade him, the less willing partners we have, the less value we can get back. (of course this can all change given a good season)

                            Now, as a starter playing majority of the minutes, I'm all for keeping him alongside a strong interior D. But that would mean moving Jack, and I don't know how willing we are to do that. I'm not confident at all with Calderon AND Bargnani playing together.

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                            • #29
                              jlongs wrote: View Post
                              We're 4 deep at PG, with Barbosa and Jack being essentially the same, just that one's quicker and the other's a better facilitator. I'm against keeping Calderon as a back-up, simply because his salary is a waste of cap space, and the longer we wait 'til we trade him, the less willing partners we have, the less value we can get back. (of course this can all change given a good season)

                              Now, as a starter playing majority of the minutes, I'm all for keeping him alongside a strong interior D. But that would mean moving Jack, and I don't know how willing we are to do that. I'm not confident at all with Calderon AND Bargnani playing together.
                              I think Calderon should be the starter until they find a suitable replacement, but I don't see him being harder to trade the longer he's kept. I think with better defenders around him, he'll look much better on defense and I have a feeling he'll have a bit of a bounce back year. Besides, it's not as if the Raptors are going to be desperate for cap space. With Banks and Evans coming off the books next summer, and probably Barbosa, if he opts out, which I expect him to do if he has a good year, as well as the trade exception, the Raptors are going to have plenty of financial flexibility.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                              • #30
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post

                                I never once said that they needed the ball in their hands all the time, and if you're going to enter into a debate with me, please don't start making stuff up.
                                what about your nash comment... did i say no one wants to play with nash ? or did YOU just make that up...

                                when comparing nash and calderon on D... nash doesnt have some sort of leg/thigh injury that prevents him from staying in front of his man... calderon does... this is why he gets beat and is TERRIBLE on D... when people say nash's d isnt that great, they mean he doesnt get steals like a cp3 or d will... calderon, after the injury cant keep up with the quicker pg's in the league... when team's need a basket against us,,, guess who they try to exploit ?

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