Is This The Real Problem?

[Apollo]

Charlie Rosen never fails to rub me the wrong way but his philosophy mentioned at the end makes sense. I don't usually agree with this guy but I do agree with this part in bold:

I'm upset because I think Toronto is a great city (it's extremely multi-cultural and friendly) and every time we get anyone good to play here they end up leaving. Vince Carter, T-Mac, Chris Bosh and even Mo Pete (Morris Peterson). This is just a rant, but maybe you have some input about the situation. Is there just a stigma in the States that Toronto is a bad city? Why do people never want to play here and what does the future hold for us? — Matt Negreanu, Toronto

Having been there dozens of times, I agree that Toronto is a wonderful place. In addition to the attributes you highlight, Toronto is clean, peaceful, easy to traverse and filled with wonderful stores, restaurants and parks, beautiful lakeside scenery and recreational areas, a wide variety of cultural events and even fascinating architecture.

However, for too many cosmopolitan Americans, Toronto is erroneously deemed to be little more than a glorified hick town. Some ultra-patriots may still be hostile to Toronto because it provided refuge for draft resisters during the Vietnam conflict.

But losing Carter, T-Mac, Bosh and Mo Pete was nothing to cry about. The problem was the Raptors’ brass believing that those guys were the real deal and could make the team authentic contenders. If the roster were stocked with players who know how (and want) to win, Toronto would be more attractive to the type of performers who would have a more positive impact on the franchise’s fortunes.

With that said, are the Raptors now heading in the right direction?

[Hassan]

too early to tell

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

i think they are. I dont recall the Raps ever doing a youth movement or rebuilding so to speak. It seems past managers did what BC is claiming to do "re-tooling" or "tweaking", but its fairly obvious that this time around, BC is slowly acquiring young pieces and "building" a team for the future.

i think he's trying to secure a young player for each position - and at the same time trying to acquire veterans in short contracts to give the kids a veteran presence from whom they can learn. if they had acquired chandler, diaw and barnes, that would have been a really good mixture of youth and veteran savvy, and when the oldies' contracts are up, it will be time for the young gunz to step up and do their thing. it didnt work out that way, but now it just gives more chances for the younger players to experience more for themselves, rather than learning from the veterans.

[Marz]

I think the real problem is stability, continuity, and coaches that don't suck.

Yes, recently we've had problems regarding our defensive intensity and tenacity. But it wasn't always that way. JYD, Davis, and Alvin Williams were all players who know how (and want) to win, and they left their hearts out on the court every single game. It didn't attract any of these players what have a "positive impact" on franchise fortunes.

There's no real, sure-fire way to build a contender. But when you have stability, continuity, and a coach who doesn't suck, you'll generally compete. The best examples (because they've been doing it for so long) are the Jazz and Spurs. More recent examples are Oklahoma City. The Lakers/Celtics have been keeping their core intact while slowly upgrading their role players. This is how you build a better franchise, and this is what we should strive for. With no Bosh left to appease, I certainly hope Colangelo and the Raptors adopt this philosophy instead of all the high-turnover we've been subject to.

[DirtyMikeSeaver]

Of course that's the real problem. I hate when Torontonians have such a complex about this city and why Americans don't want to come here. Basketball players (and for that matter, baseball players) want to play in about 8 different cities (Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas, Orlando, Miami, New York and when they are good, Chicago and Boston). Even with LA, it has to be with the Lakers and it's not like New York gets all the great free agents either. When a team is good, magically, players want to play there. When a team sucks, no one wants to go near them.

That's what makes it genius what OKC is doing and makes me want to rip my eyes out whenever that hack at the Star says things like "How are they going to pay them?!?!?!". I've been to OKC and it's not exactly a bustling Metropolis, but what they have done to make it attractive to their star is surround him with quality young guys (Westbrook, Harden, Aldrich, Green, Ibaka) that he can grow up with, along with savvy trades and pickups (Maynor, Shefalosha, Kristic) and the ability to add a veteran or 2 down the road. Cleveland never did that with Lebron, so he left (it's telling that his best friend on the team was the 38 yr old Lituanian). Toronto never did that with Bosh, so he left (it's telling that his best friend was the 28 yr old balding Spaniard). And BTW, It's not like these picks were slam dunks. Westbrook was seen as too small and not a good shooter. Green had doubts coming out of Georgetown. Harden could have been Evans, Rubio or Curry. They just knew what they wanted to build. And I'm sure they will find a way to pay most of them.

Toronto just needs a base of good young players to grow with. That's why the key really is DeRozan and Weems (sorry, but Bargnani has basically the same PER as Michael Beasley, so I think the ship has sailed in regards to him being a franchise player). Those two NEED to make the leap (wow, that's a huge long shot). If they do, then you can base your team around them, Davis and possibly whatever young point guard they get next year (and yes, even Bargnani). If those 2 crap out, well... look at Indiana...

[Rozier]

Tough call, I've often wondered about this type of issue.

Players who wanted to leave: Stoudamire, Christie, A. Davis, Oakley, T-mac, Carter, Dee Brown, Alston, Turkoglu, Bosh, plus probably more. I know in some cases you can appeal to circumstances at the time.

Players who wouldn't report: Anderson, Mourning. Babcock knew the Mourning situation when he made the trade but this doesn't change the fact.

I agree that a winning environment fosters good players wanting to be part of that environment. But the Raptors went toe-to-toe with Philly and still lost T-mac and Oakley.

Poor drafting record - yes. High coaching turnover - yes. Poor locker room dynamic - often yes. Foreign country - maybe. Bad time for the NBA due to the consequences of promoting and marketing the "star" syndrome - probably.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Of course that's the real problem. I hate when Torontonians have such a complex about this city and why Americans don't want to come here. Basketball players (and for that matter, baseball players) want to play in about 8 different cities (Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas, Orlando, Miami, New York and when they are good, Chicago and Boston). Even with LA, it has to be with the Lakers and it's not like New York gets all the great free agents either. When a team is good, magically, players want to play there. When a team sucks, no one wants to go near them.

That's what makes it genius what OKC is doing and makes me want to rip my eyes out whenever that hack at the Star says things like "How are they going to pay them?!?!?!". I've been to OKC and it's not exactly a bustling Metropolis, but what they have done to make it attractive to their star is surround him with quality young guys (Westbrook, Harden, Aldrich, Green, Ibaka) that he can grow up with, along with savvy trades and pickups (Maynor, Shefalosha, Kristic) and the ability to add a veteran or 2 down the road. Cleveland never did that with Lebron, so he left (it's telling that his best friend on the team was the 38 yr old Lituanian). Toronto never did that with Bosh, so he left (it's telling that his best friend was the 28 yr old balding Spaniard). And BTW, It's not like these picks were slam dunks. Westbrook was seen as too small and not a good shooter. Green had doubts coming out of Georgetown. Harden could have been Evans, Rubio or Curry. They just knew what they wanted to build. And I'm sure they will find a way to pay most of them.

Toronto just needs a base of good young players to grow with. That's why the key really is DeRozan and Weems (sorry, but Bargnani has basically the same PER as Michael Beasley, so I think the ship has sailed in regards to him being a franchise player). Those two NEED to make the leap (wow, that's a huge long shot). If they do, then you can base your team around them, Davis and possibly whatever young point guard they get next year (and yes, even Bargnani). If those 2 crap out, well... look at Indiana...

draft picks are what we call in poker, skilled luck. you put yourself in the position to get the best outcome using your skill, but in the end, it still all comes down to luck. every draft pick is conjoined with luck, unless your pick was Lebron James. I think in the history of NBA drafts, Lebron was the only "sure" pick, meaning everybody said he will be the best player in the draft and thats what he turned out to be.

i think if Jermaine played 82 games in Toronto, we'd still have Bosh and we'd probably be securing at least the 3rd seed every season. if garbo and AP stuck around we might be a contender by now. BC had the right ideas, he put his skills to good use in acquiring the pieces, they just didnt have the luck to win.

[MangoKid]

Tough call, I've often wondered about this type of issue.

Players who wanted to leave: Stoudamire, Christie, A. Davis, Oakley, T-mac, Carter, Dee Brown, Alston, Turkoglu, Bosh, plus probably more. I know in some cases you can appeal to circumstances at the time.

Players who wouldn't report: Anderson, Mourning. Babcock knew the Mourning situation when he made the trade but this doesn't change the fact.

I agree that a winning environment fosters good players wanting to be part of that environment. But the Raptors went toe-to-toe with Philly and still lost T-mac and Oakley.

Poor drafting record - yes. High coaching turnover - yes. Poor locker room dynamic - often yes. Foreign country - maybe. Bad time for the NBA due to the consequences of promoting and marketing the "star" syndrome - probably.

Winning cures everything. Plain and simple. Look at the late 80s-early 90s Jays. Guys were clamouring to come here. Even during Vinsanity, guys wanted to play here. It's all about winning. Guys know that Toronto is one of the better stops on the NBA circuit because the party scene is hype. Guys love the shopping here as well.
But it all comes down to winning. If you're not winning, you're not gonna get positive publicity, plain and simple.

The Raptors lost McGrady after the 1st playoff appearance against New York. He didn't want to be here because it was cold, because of the taxes and because he wanted to be "the man" on a team.
Oakley was traded the following offseason. He didn't leave on his own accord.

[SirChillyMost]

The real problem is BC's and Jay's "no accountability" locker room environment in which Bargnani, Turkoglu can mess up on defense time & time again and the coaches won't say anything to them about it. Jack & Wright even wondered aloud in the press about wtf was or wasn't going on ie accountability.

I just got through watching a few Raptor games from last season over the weekend on Raptor's TV and they (TO's big men) rarely box out and Bargnani is just pitiful when attacking the glass for boards. When Barg's isn't making shots he's worthless on the court.

Players love TO- especially with all the ethnic diversification with the women.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

draft picks are what we call in poker, skilled luck. you put yourself in the position to get the best outcome using your skill, but in the end, it still all comes down to luck. every draft pick is conjoined with luck, unless your pick was Lebron James. I think in the history of NBA drafts, Lebron was the only "sure" pick, meaning everybody said he will be the best player in the draft and thats what he turned out to be.

To take the "luck" aspect one step further, it is basically luck to even be in a position to have the #1 pick, thanks to the draft lottery. Washington drafting Wall, Cleveland drafting James, Orlando drafting Shaq & Hardaway, Oklahoma drafting Durant (was #2 after Oden, but only because Portland had Roy)... none of these teams would be pointed to as being a shining example of a contending team that was slowly and methodically built from the ground up, if they hadn't lucked out in the draft lottery.

The point is, it instantaneously becomes so much easier to attract good players to your team once you luckily (or via free agent signing) add that first young stud player. Having said that, building a contending team is never a sure thing, once you take ego/fit/chemistry into account (ie: Cleveland with James).

I do agree with the point the article made about Toronto always trying to build a contending team around a 2nd-tier star, rather than a true superstar. Bosh was an all-star but not a franchise player, as he needed a penetrating guard/wing all-star to team with a la Gasol & Kobe. Carter was an all-star but not a franchise player, largely because he put his personal success ahead of team sucess.

I do like the approach BC is taking, of acquiring young talent with potential, as well as draft picks and cap flexibility. Even if some of the young players don't pan out as a viable #1 or #2 star, at the very least these guys would be solid assets to use in future trades. If BC is allowed to continue his strategy, I think the Raptors could be a very good team in the next 2-5 seasons, with a solid core of up-and-coming stars that have had several years of playing together to develop a solid on-court chemistry.

[LBF]

you know it's not like anybody besides t-mac didn't spend over 5 years here. so, i mean it's nothing to really cry over.

I think they are headed in the right direction but i don't know if they have the right players for the job it seems they do but only time will tell.

[DirtyMikeSeaver]

BTW, one last thing. Utah has all the warts that Toronto supposedly has, even more with some of their alcohol laws, yet, because they have a good plan, they can attract good players. What's their excuse?

[Apollo]

Utah has a legendary coach, a proven long lasting system, strong ownership and lots of great history. Utah has a great reputation and is one of the most stable franchises in the league. They are a shining example of what happens when an organization is run properly from the top down. For the Jazz, it doesn't matter that they're in Utah.

[Rozier]

I forgot - T-mac was already gone. But Oakley walked after that season, and the Raptors got crap back for him, and did others at other times. Every player may have reasons. T-mac was a prima-donna, Christie was pussy-whipped ... whatever.

In the case of the Raptors the reasons may begin at the top. 15 years of non-confidence inspiring management leadership can be argued.

The question is whether the managers and coaches have been that incompetent (Babcock and Walker excepted - they were awful), or whether Toronto is caught in a perpetual situation where the franchise has to demonstrate itself as a superior destination for good NBA players. Maybe they need to have great leadership to succeed - good to effective leadership is not enough. Lord knows San Antonio and Utah cannot be considered great destination franchises but they put a competitive team on the floor.

I don't want to get into the relative merits of Grunwald, Wilkens, O'Neill, Sam, BC, and the like. They have all demonstrated they were qualified to be considered and hired (Triano - the jury is still out). But there is no question that the Raptors have trouble attracting and keeping players - and overpay for the ones they get. The above managers and coaches all acted like they were under pressure to produce a winning team, as opposed to building a winning environment.

Or you can say the Raptors failed to draft someone like LBJ, or Howard, or Durant. Bad luck. But Howard, if he ever becomes a free agent, isn't coming to Toronto, nor are Paul, Anthony, Rose, or any other prime players. So how do you produce this winning environment. Draft luck ? Minnesota got Garnett and spent years trying to build a team around him while accomodating the excessive cost to keep him in Minnesota. Garnett is a winner. Let's not even talk about Cleveland, which is condemned until further notice.

The Raptors need some luck, like the Pistons had when they acquired Wallace (for Hill) and Hamilton, and drafted Prince. All things come together and they win a championship. Where are they now?

[Bendit]

BTW, one last thing. Utah has all the warts that Toronto supposedly has, even more with some of their alcohol laws, yet, because they have a good plan, they can attract good players. What's their excuse?

That was a fine previous post. We need not apologize a wit about this town. In another write I proposed forsaking this the predictable model of building around a *star* player and just concentrate on getting good players with a definite mature mindset and high BB IQ and the rest will fall into place. As others have stated holding out for the star is a crapshoot. If Atlanta did not have this aversion to great point guards...CP3 & Deron W.) DW would have been in Atlanta and not Marvin Williams.

As far as Utah goes maybe polygamy is a favored lifestyle for some nba players!! Seriously though, continuity in the front office and coaching is probably what does it for them. No flash. Just serious basketball, moreso on defense.