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  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know if he's pretty close to his ceiling or not, but what more does he need to develop in order to be a starter on a good team? He can score, rebound and defend. The ONLY thing he needs to really do is cut down on the fouls, which he has this year. I can easily see Amir being the starter on a lot of contenders.
    I disagree. He's very talented, and is a pretty good defender. But he would only be a sixth man at most, on a contender. Just like Bargnani would be a sixth man at most on a contender. Amir looks a lot better than he is because he plays next to horrid defenders. But next to guys like Lamar Odom, he is half decent. I don't see him starting over guys like Jeff Green, Paul Millsap, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Brandon Bass, Carlos Boozer etc... But he would definitely be a player contenders want off the bench, energetic and good defender.

    I think teams would really like Amir, and I don't see us getting much with trading Bargnani alone. So, maybe including a guy like Amir, expiring of Reggie and Miami's pick. But I still don't see what we could get back for Bargnani. I think Bargnani is far more valuable than anything we could get. Plus, the best case scenario would be that in a couple years (or even next year, Kanter) we get a good center, which can start allowing Bargnani to be a spark off the bench. Having a guy like Bargnani off the bench, could be incredible and cause huge match up problems. Just that now we have no one that can start in his place.

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    • I don't think the rebounding is the main issue. We have rebounders on the team, we are in the middle of the pack in the rankings for rebounding. The issue is his defense, if he defended, he wouldn't be a liability, even with his rebounding. Look at Evans, who grabbed 12 rebounds a game, but was still a liability, because he didn't play decent defense. If Bargnani played defense, I wouldn't care if he grabbed 3 rebounds a game, but he doesn't.

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      • JoePanini wrote: View Post
        I don't think the rebounding is the main issue. We have rebounders on the team, we are in the middle of the pack in the rankings for rebounding. The issue is his defense, if he defended, he wouldn't be a liability, even with his rebounding. Look at Evans, who grabbed 12 rebounds a game, but was still a liability, because he didn't play decent defense. If Bargnani played defense, I wouldn't care if he grabbed 3 rebounds a game, but he doesn't.
        Yea I completely disagree, its not like his one on one defence is bad, its his team defence, but then again, most of the players on this team suck at team defence. So really the only problem most Raptor fans have with Bargnani is his terrible, terrible rebounding numbers. Can you explain to me why is Kevin Love; a shorter, less athletic player, is getting ALMOST as much offensive rebounds as Andrea's total per game?? I mean other than the fact that he's lazy, a claim he made himself.

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        • matt wrote: View Post
          Yea I completely disagree, its not like his one on one defence is bad, its his team defence, but then again, most of the players on this team suck at team defence. So really the only problem most Raptor fans have with Bargnani is his terrible, terrible rebounding numbers. Can you explain to me why is Kevin Love; a shorter, less athletic player, is getting ALMOST as much offensive rebounds as Andrea's total per game?? I mean other than the fact that he's lazy, a claim he made himself.
          Because he knows how to time his rebounds, thus being a good rebounder. You don't only need to be athletic to be a good rebounder. You need instinct, hops, effort and a timing. Now, Bargnani has none of those, and he is not very athletic either.

          And his one on one defense is pretty bad, I don't know how many times players have just gone by him. And opposing centers keep on lighting up on him. His post D is decent, but post D alone can't make him a decent defender. DeRozan and Bargnani are clearly the worst defenders on the team, but DeRozan has had moments where he has defended with grit, Bargnani not so much.

          Anyways, comparing Andrea with Love is pretty unfair. It's like comparing DeRozan to Carter. Love is a really good player who puts in a lot of effort, more than most players. Rebounds incredibly, also shoots very well.

          Also, although there are quite a few times where he missed important rebounds, him rebounding isn't really needed. We have guys like Johnson, Davis, Dorsey, Kleiza and when healthy Evans to rebound. His defense is what is killing us.

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          • smushmush wrote: View Post
            Even if you are rebuilding, you should not be blown out by 10-win teams like the Minnesota Timberwolves lol.
            So if I am to understand correctly, no team should lose to another team who has 3 or more less wins. So it is impossible for ORL to blow out BOS or ATL to blow out MIA? One sh!t team got spanked by another sh!t team.

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            • matt wrote: View Post
              Yea I completely disagree, its not like his one on one defence is bad, its his team defence, but then again, most of the players on this team suck at team defence. So really the only problem most Raptor fans have with Bargnani is his terrible, terrible rebounding numbers. Can you explain to me why is Kevin Love; a shorter, less athletic player, is getting ALMOST as much offensive rebounds as Andrea's total per game?? I mean other than the fact that he's lazy, a claim he made himself.
              All this Kevin Love "LOVE"
              Where is Minie in the standings...
              Speaking of numbers...Bosh had some pretty good numbers !!!and how did that work for us?
              Regie is one heck of a rebounder,but has no offensive game.
              I agree with the sentiment that Bargs must give up some minutes,give them to Davis,or french fries...or Alibi
              I think BC'S plan of tanking is working !!!!
              Kyrie baby....as much as I like the speedy guard from Duke,we will have to take the best player available...I would love Sullinger ,lacking in size,but one tough SOB.
              Problem,outside of a few in the top 5 ,I cant see anybody coming and having an immediate impact on out team.
              I know,I dont want any more PROJECTS.
              Can we scoop Perkins from the Celtics,now there is one mean mother....after this season they might to visit a youth campaign....hoping lol.
              Ping Pong Balls,boys and girls.

              Comment


              • Arsenalist wrote: View Post
                Dude, 4.2 rebounds is a lot! It translates to 4 possessions which means anywhere from 4-6 points if you assume 50% shooting. That's a lot! Here's a "leaderboard" comparison you might find interesting: Five points separate the 15th and 1st ranked defensive teams in the league right now (talking points per 100 possessions here). If the Raptors were to save these five points from being scored, they'd be an average defensive team instead of second-worst.
                Game. Set. Match.
                http://twitter.com/Liston

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                • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                  Now if there was a stat which seperated earned rebounds from unearned rebounds then I would think that rebounding stat would be more useful...
                  It would. Be careful what you wish for though. I reviewed the last game with League Pass. Bargnani had 3 rebounds - first one was tipped by Amir Johnson back to beyond the three point area, right into Bargnani's hands. The second was a defensive board where Love had better position, but it went beyond his reach. The third was a result of Bargnani having his shot blocked and caught it again (counts as an offensive rebound).
                  http://twitter.com/Liston

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                  • Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                    You don't think Bargs is a bad rebounder huh? Then I have a challenge for you: next time you watch a Raptors game, just keep your eyes on him the entire game. Ignore everything going on except what he's doing and then come back here and tell me he's not a bad rebounder.
                    I watched him intently against Memphis. He was often boxed out by the man he's guarding. He stands around too much and lets his man establish in the deep post for the most part and lets his man get the ball. It's like this - Bargs thinks he can defend the man when HE IS READY. How does he determine when he's ready? Well, he let's his man get the ball and then he tries to defend. Applying pressure on his man by not letting him in the post position he wants and sometimes "fronting" him are the types of things big me do on a regular basis when guarding their own man down low. He simply doesn't do those things!

                    PS> He loves to guard his area by the way and handles switches very poorly. After 5 years, you shouldn't be this lost on defence. He is slow physically and mentally. Lastly, Bargs' next contract will not be in the NBA. Mark my words.
                    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Mon Jan 31, 2011, 10:14 AM.
                    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                    • JoePanini wrote: View Post
                      Plus, the best case scenario would be that in a couple years (or even next year, Kanter) we get a good center, which can start allowing Bargnani to be a spark off the bench. Having a guy like Bargnani off the bench, could be incredible and cause huge match up problems. Just that now we have no one that can start in his place.
                      I don't think he would accept a bench role with the raptors. With another team perhaps, but not in Toronto. I do agree with you that he is probably more valuable than anything we can get in return for him, however, 80 cents on the dollar would be okay with me right now.

                      I see Sacramento as a team with a high first round pick that might be interested in Bargnani. The draft still is an imperfect science so they might be willing to give up their first round pick for Bargs and a late first round pick (plus whatever filler it takes to make the deal work). Playing him at PF with Cousins at C may accelerate Sac's rebuilding plans significantly. The upside for us is that we may have two top 5 picks. Try to get Irving if he's there, obviously, but if he's not grab your wing of choice and Kanter to play C

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                      • Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                        Base year compensation

                        Certain players in the first few months of a new contract are subject to base year compensation (BYC). The intent of BYC is to prevent teams from re-signing players to salaries specifically targeted to match other salaries in a trade (in other words, salary should be based on basketball value, not trade value). A BYC player's trade value as outgoing salary is 50% of his new salary, or his previous salary, whichever is greater. BYC applies only to players who re-sign with their previous team and receive a raise greater than 20%. It also applies only when (and as long as) the team is over the salary cap.


                        This could be a good or bad factor. Good for us because we don't have to take on a bad contract to make it happen (ie, 8.5 mil goes out the door with 4.25 coming in?). I'm not sure, but someone can correct me on this. This can ultimately determine what we get in return for someone like Bargs. I'd love Marc Gasol personally but again, as a BYC player, I dunno how this is going to work (like getting prized players on rookie contracts?).
                        excuse my ignorance, i'm somewhat contract and salaries stupid... but if the raps were to trade him, would he count as 8.5 or 4.25 against the other team's cap space?

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                        • coastal wrote: View Post
                          I don't think he would accept a bench role with the raptors. With another team perhaps, but not in Toronto. I do agree with you that he is probably more valuable than anything we can get in return for him, however, 80 cents on the dollar would be okay with me right now.

                          I see Sacramento as a team with a high first round pick that might be interested in Bargnani. The draft still is an imperfect science so they might be willing to give up their first round pick for Bargs and a late first round pick (plus whatever filler it takes to make the deal work). Playing him at PF with Cousins at C may accelerate Sac's rebuilding plans significantly. The upside for us is that we may have two top 5 picks. Try to get Irving if he's there, obviously, but if he's not grab your wing of choice and Kanter to play C
                          He likes Toronto, I think he would accept being a sixth man, unless a team like New York offer him a starting job. I know he likes New York a lot, but I don't think he'd leave for any other team, but if the management wants him to leave, I guess he would.

                          As for Kanter, I was hoping BC would make a trade to get us another lottery or mid-range pick to get someone like Kanter, or Kyle Singler who I like, and Tyler Honeycutt. In a draft where apart from Irving, there is no star, picking a bunch a players in the 2-15 range could bring us some great talent. And it's what I think BC should do, get maybe 2 or 3 picks if possible. I thought he would do that with Peja's contract, give him to a team which is struggling, but has a high pay-roll.

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                          • I already have large enough sample of games to form an opinion, besides the fact Andrea has been playing hurt the last month, he has been dominating his matchups on a game to game basis (obviously more so before his injury) Off the top of my head the only games I can remember an opposing big posting a huge game against us, was Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut, both games coming recently and good on them for taking advantage of a player clearly battling leg and knee problems. When Amir plays through back pain everyone praises him for going out and playing even when he scores like 4 points and grabs 5 rebounds. Well it's time to give Bargnani the same love he is playing injured and not using any excuses. Give it up for the Romanian Warrior. (and for those of you who dont beleive his injury watch replays of the last handful fo games (When he shoots his 3 points he can barly bend his knees and is using all wrist which is explaing his huge dip in 3 point shooting not to mention his overall shooting percetage.

                            In regards to his defensive rebounding.. Andrea may not get the indvidual rebounds himself but he creates lots of rebounds for his teamates, which people like you obviously don't pay attention to. Andrea plays excellent man to man defence and thus causes his opposing player to shoot a low percentage which obviosly leaves his teamates in excellent position to rebound the missed shot. Also, you must not realize his block shot have been increasing lately which if Amir was getting 3 block a game he would be praised like no tomorrow.



                            Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                            You don't think Bargs is a bad rebounder huh? Then I have a challenge for you: next time you watch a Raptors game, just keep your eyes on him the entire game. Ignore everything going on except what he's doing and then come back here and tell me he's not a bad rebounder.
                            Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Mon Jan 31, 2011, 11:12 AM.

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                            • I think Jay is afraid of being fired for benching Bargs and making him be accountable for his mistakes on the court.

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                              • They wouldn't be able to get what the Raptors really need, a quality young center. No Brook Lopez, no Joakim Noah, no Kevin Love(dude can play center) and no Al Horford. They could probably land Nene's expiring contract but he's already making a list of places he would like to play and from what I read Toronto wasn't on that list. Plus the age/talent ratio isn't as good as Bargnani's. Maybe Andrew Bynum but I think he's closer to Greg Oden than Shaq at this point. Plus he's been called out on his work ethic in the past.

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