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  • Very interesting Buddah.

    As for his scoring compensating for his rebounding. What happens when he has a bad shooting night?

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    • He hasn't finished his career yet, so you can't call him the worst 7' rebounder in history. He's improving every year. You can't compare someone who hasn't even hit they're prime yet to players who are retired, in their prime, etc. Plus coming off the bench half of his career and playing with a rebounder like Bosh you're entire career isn't going to help that stat either.

      All I'm saying is, let's give the kid a real chance before labeling him with shameful titles.

      Comment


      • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
        What he lacks in rebounding, he make up in scoring. I have a feeling that both those numbers are going up this year...
        Rebounding is at a premium. A lot of players on the Raptors can score but few can rebound. I think his rebounding totals will go up simply because Bosh leaves, not because he is fighting, boxing out, our being in the right position for them.

        Comment


        • I have been thinking about this

          My line of thought about this at this time is just this.

          It seems to be and appears to be that there could be for big men

          a sixth sense that is critical to have in order to be a good team defender and another sixth sense that is critical to have in order to be a good rebounder.


          So what is the stroke of genius here?

          Hold on a second and I will type it.

          The stroke of genius is that while a player can be taught to box out and other fundamentals of rebounding and team defense

          The biggest part of rebounding is having that sixth sense of where the ball will bounce before it even hits the rim and then working your butt off to get it.

          So to it seems to me with team defense. It is a matter of having that sixth sense of knowing where to be on the court and any given time as the play unfolds and then working your butt off to be there.


          While you can be taught the fundamentals of good rebounding and playing good team defense you either got it or you don't

          All you can do is continue to work hard which hopefully will yield some improvement in these areas.

          However, it seems to me that the bottom line in all this is good rebounders and team defenders are born with some innate sense.

          if you haven't got that sixth sense on knowing where to be on the court when the shot is released before it hits the rim and/or as the play unfolds you will never get it.


          Yes coaching can help you but it seems to me only up to a limited extent.

          It is like if you are only 6'2" and can't jump all the coaching in the world is not going to turn you into a good shot blocker.

          So to its seems to me with rebounding and team defense. If you can't do both of them well by your second or third year in the NBA especially as a starter, the chances are that you never will do either one of them well although you may show some minor improvement.

          For example regarding Bargnani's rebounding rate

          Here is his rebounding rate per 36 minutes by year since he has been in the NBA

          06-07---------5.6
          07-08---------5.6
          08-09---------6.1
          09-10---------6.3

          Not really much of an improvement over the last three seasons, a little over 10% or a bit over 3% a season.

          http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bargnan01.html

          Will he get better numbers playing next to Johnson or Davis vs Bosh?

          Rebounds Per 36 minutes last season

          ---------Tot--Def Reb
          --------------------------
          Bosh----10.8---7.9
          Johnson--9.8---6.0

          So at the most there could be two more rebounds per 36 for Bargnani to grab based upon the simple numbers assuming that Johnson doesn't improve and that Davis isn't any better than Johnson at rebounding which he could be.

          So in the final analysis here the conclusion that I have come to is that appears to me that Bargnani's rebounding numbers per 36 minutes in 10-11 will not go up much if at all from those in 09-10. Maybe 10% - 15% at the most which would still leave him best case at not much better than about 7 rebounds per 36 minutes. This it seems to me will be the best case and in fact his rebounding number per 36 minutes could remain basically unchanged in 10-11 vs 09-10.

          Just my opinion.
          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

          Memories some so sweet, indeed

          Larger Photo of the avatar



          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

          Comment


          • Saying that ANdrea is the worst rebounder in history and the guy is 24 years old is moronic. Most nba players were only in their second year at 24 years old. SO if you can judge a 24 year old on his career already then you must have some psychic ability.

            Comment


            • Bargnani can only improve, but even if he averages 7 rebounds a game, it's how he plays on both ends which is more important.

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              • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                Saying that ANdrea is the worst rebounder in history and the guy is 24 years old is moronic. Most nba players were only in their second year at 24 years old. SO if you can judge a 24 year old on his career already then you must have some psychic ability.
                Well according to as I recall our esteemed leader, Arse, or maybe it was Appllo, NBA players max out statistically in their numbers per minute on the court when they are 25.

                The NBA rule of thumb is 5 years of on court time or 25 whichever comes sooner.

                This will be Bargnani's 5th year.

                Good luck with his numbers making big improvements

                It wouldn't surprise me if he only averaged about 20 ppg or even less in 10-11.

                The team has a lot more scorers than him.

                I have already addressed what I think his rebounding numbers might be in 10-11

                My expected stat line for him in 10-11 is 19.5 ppg and 6.5 rpg.

                I hope I am wrong and he does better, seriously, but I am not optimistic.
                Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Aug 15, 2010, 10:37 AM.
                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                Memories some so sweet, indeed

                Larger Photo of the avatar



                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                Comment


                • Personally, I could care less if Bargnani rebounds better. But what I do care about is that he, at the very least, boxes out his man and prevents him from getting the board. And then someone else on the team can grab the board (like Marion did when he was here). No rebound for Bargs, but still Raps get the board. Everyone except stat junkies happy.

                  What annoys me most is that when a shot goes up, Bargnani's first instinct is to watch the ball, when it should be find his man and box him out. That said, when watching Ed Davis, you can really see that his first instinct (at least from what I've seen) is to find a man to box out. Only after that will he face the ring to try and grab the rebound.

                  Comment


                  • Buddah your wrong about when big men develop. Statistically 28-29 is the big mens best year. I would say from 25-29 is peak years for big guys. Weaker big guys tend to develop later in the 25-29 cycle. Really Bargni's next four years will dictate his success.

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                    • jlongs wrote: View Post
                      Personally, I could care less if Bargnani rebounds better. But what I do care about is that he, at the very least, boxes out his man and prevents him from getting the board. And then someone else on the team can grab the board (like Marion did when he was here). No rebound for Bargs, but still Raps get the board. Everyone except stat junkies happy.

                      What annoys me most is that when a shot goes up, Bargnani's first instinct is to watch the ball, when it should be find his man and box him out. That said, when watching Ed Davis, you can really see that his first instinct (at least from what I've seen) is to find a man to box out. Only after that will he face the ring to try and grab the rebound.
                      AMEN!!!!!! I'm a high school teacher and have been involved with basketball and young teens. What do we teach them as far as fundamentals are concerned - find out a man to box out. I spent an inordinate amount of time just watching Bargs play during games to observe what he does without the ball and there is a shocking rate of inactivity on his part when the ball goes up. Here's the scary part - sometimes there's no difference in his reaction after he takes a shot and misses or someone else takes a shot and misses. I mean, he's not athletic but can move for a big man. He needs to show a little bit of hunger for, in the very least, boxing out your man. I'm not saying he be Noah or Lee hungry but just a little.
                      “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

                      Comment


                      • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
                        What he lacks in rebounding, he make up in scoring. I have a feeling that both those numbers are going up this year...
                        1. No he doesn't

                        2. I have a feeling the sun will rise tomorrow. Of course the numbers will go up. It's a default since he's the number 1 option.

                        Comment


                        • jlongs wrote: View Post
                          Personally, I could care less if Bargnani rebounds better. But what I do care about is that he, at the very least, boxes out his man and prevents him from getting the board. And then someone else on the team can grab the board (like Marion did when he was here). No rebound for Bargs, but still Raps get the board. Everyone except stat junkies happy.

                          What annoys me most is that when a shot goes up, Bargnani's first instinct is to watch the ball, when it should be find his man and box him out. That said, when watching Ed Davis, you can really see that his first instinct (at least from what I've seen) is to find a man to box out. Only after that will he face the ring to try and grab the rebound.
                          That is not true. Why?

                          Because if Bargani boxes out successfully it will reduce the Raptors opponents "second chance point total per game". So his boxing out will show up in a team stat which is far more important than an individuals stat.
                          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                          Memories some so sweet, indeed

                          Larger Photo of the avatar



                          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                          Comment


                          • nubreed000 wrote: View Post
                            1. No he doesn't

                            2. I have a feeling the sun will rise tomorrow. Of course the numbers will go up. It's a default since he's the number 1 option.
                            He will only be the #1 option

                            1. In the half court game - I expect the Raptors to score an awful lot in fast breaks.
                            2. He will only be the number #1 option on three point shots, not on post play or mid range shots
                            3. If say DeRozan and Kleiza get hot in a game and Bargnani not so much then he will fall to the third option in that game. Or even if Barbosa, Jack, Davis, Weems get hot and Bargnani is cold, Triano will milk that for as long as it keeps working.

                            Bargnani is no Bosh when it comes to scoring and especially getting to the free throw line. So he may start out a game as the #1 option but the Raptors have a lot of other players who can also score, so if they get hot and he goes cold he will no longer be the #1 option in that game unless he later gets hot. He is not like Bosh who the Raptors could at least count on getting to the free throw line and making his free throws if his jump shot was not falling.
                            Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Aug 15, 2010, 01:28 PM.
                            Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                            Memories some so sweet, indeed

                            Larger Photo of the avatar



                            “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                            Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                            Comment


                            • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                              That is not true. Why?

                              Because if Bargani boxes out successfully it will reduce the Raptors opponents "second chance point total per game". So his boxing out will show up in a team stat which is far more important than an individuals stat.
                              Nah not really, because what happens if Bargs successfully boxes his man out, but someone (like say Kleiza) fails to box his man out, and his man gets the board, will it still be Bargnani's fault for not having enough rebounds on the stat sheet to show for?

                              Bargnani has his deficiencies in defense, but him and his rebounding weren't the sole reason that the Raptors were dead last in defense last season. It's just that the team sucked as a whole. So it doesn't matter if only Bargs and his rebounding improve, or even his boxing out, while the rest of the team still sucks.

                              Comment


                              • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                                That is not true. Why?

                                Because if Bargani boxes out successfully it will reduce the Raptors opponents "second chance point total per game". So his boxing out will show up in a team stat which is far more important than an individuals stat.
                                Not true to an extent. People are going to see it as a team stat and will still pin things on is below average rebounding numbers when things go wrong. Sure it may go: when Bargnani is on the floor there are less second chance points. But when the Raptors are ranked 28th or so in the league in rebounding it will go: Bargnani should be averaging way more rebounds for a 7'. Which stat do you think people are more likely to realize?

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