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  • Welcome to at least one more season of Andrea Bargnani, Tim. Enjoy.
    hahahahaha. hey Apollo there's still 1 more week before the season starts.
    Maybe Casey is just hyping up Bargnani's pre-season work ethic so some GM will offer a trade!
    hahahahahaha

    Comment


    • In the article and Casey's defense, (and I admit haven't read through all 7 pages because I'm sure it's been derailed into a general AB discussion) I'd argue that Bargnani has the most similar offensive skillset to Dirk than any other player in the league. Similar, not equal. And I'm including the matchup problems they create as part of their skillset.

      Why wouldn't you want Casey to run sets that worked for Dirk and put him into a good position to score or create for others?

      Everyone knows the sets would be more effective if you had Dirk rather than Bargnani. But what else are the Raptors we going to run? JC and Amir pick and rolls? DD baseline backdoor alleyoops? That damn Longhorns (or whatever) play Sam Mitchell used to run every single time down the court?

      That's all that article and quotes are saying - with some added hyperbole for confidence boosting and PR hype.

      But I suppose you can't have an article that compliments Bargnani on his offensive game without everyone chiming in about how he's lacking in other (maybe every other) areas.

      I wonder...if Phil Jackson was coaching the Raptors this year and he said he has some sets he wants to run for DD because they worked for Kobe, how big the outcry would be here in RR.
      Two beer away from being two beers away.

      Comment


      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        You lost me right here. He doesn't play average man D. I've already gone into this before, but having watched the guy play nearly every game the last 5 years, what I have seen is not average man-to-man defense. And his team defense is atrocious, making him an actual liability on the court.

        Let me repeat that.

        Bargnani is currently a liability on the court.

        For all of DeAndre Jordan's weaknesses (and he does have them), he's not a liability to the team half the time he's on the court. There's a difference between not being an offensive threat and being a liability on offense. Reggie Evans was, for the most part, an offensive liability because even if you gave him the ball under the basket, there was a good chance he wouldn't put it in (although in his defense he's obviously a great offensive rebounder and an underrated passer, so that helps). Jordan shot over 65% from the field. No one can say he's a liability on offense, except in tight games when his free throw shooting could hurt his team, but he can simply be taken out, then.
        You are incorrect in your assessment of Bargs' man defense. It is average and some would argue it is actually decent. He is strong when guarding pick and rolls and isolation plays. He also does a good job defending in the post. He is bad a closing out. There was an article about it last here, it was fairly in depth and looked at how he did in different situations vs. the rest of the league, maybe you remember it? He has had bad games, but overall he is an average man defender.

        His team defense is "atrocious", particularly when he has to make more than one rotation, but then he has never had another good defensive player around him to key off. If we are going with the Nowitzki comparison, Dirk had his struggles on defense too. Once he had a good defensive center put beside him to work with he got better and eventually became the average player we see today. It's not rocket science, having no one on the team who knows how to play team D as a center gives no example for Bargs to follow. Maybe this will be corrected this season by the addition of Magloir and Casey, maybe not.

        If you think DeAndre Jordan isn't a liability on offense, you haven't watched him enough. The guy is not only a terrible, terrible free throw shooter, he is useless beyond two feet from the basket, and he is just plain bad in the pick and roll. Without Blake to attract attention, he'd be useless. The only reason he isn't a complete loss is his freaky athleticism which could eventually let him become a better player. This is not Dwight Howard 2, Dwight has always been a pick and roll monster.
        "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

        -Churchill

        Comment


        • Mess wrote: View Post
          I wonder...if Phil Jackson was coaching the Raptors this year and he said he has some sets he wants to run for DD because they worked for Kobe, how big the outcry would be here in RR.
          People would be figuratively feeding him grapes and rubbing his feet. There is always only one dominate punching bag Raptorsland. Bargnani is going for the time record.

          Comment


          • Mess wrote: View Post
            In the article and Casey's defense, (and I admit haven't read through all 7 pages because I'm sure it's been derailed into a general AB discussion) I'd argue that Bargnani has the most similar offensive skillset to Dirk than any other player in the league. Similar, not equal. And I'm including the matchup problems they create as part of their skillset.

            Why wouldn't you want Casey to run sets that worked for Dirk and put him into a good position to score or create for others?

            Everyone knows the sets would be more effective if you had Dirk rather than Bargnani. But what else are the Raptors we going to run? JC and Amir pick and rolls? DD baseline backdoor alleyoops? That damn Longhorns (or whatever) play Sam Mitchell used to run every single time down the court?

            That's all that article and quotes are saying - with some added hyperbole for confidence boosting and PR hype.

            But I suppose you can't have an article that compliments Bargnani on his offensive game without everyone chiming in about how he's lacking in other (maybe every other) areas.

            I wonder...if Phil Jackson was coaching the Raptors this year and he said he has some sets he wants to run for DD because they worked for Kobe, how big the outcry would be here in RR.
            This is my gripe about Bargnani discussions, some people just cant go through one good post without mentioning all his "liabilities". We get it! For crying out loud. It starts with the good stuff and eventually somebody comes in and points out the bad. Irks me coz it just ruins good discussions.

            Comment


            • tbihis wrote: View Post
              Well when you say stuff like this:

              It looks like you do think you are Nostradamus. Just man up and say "I was really expecting him to get traded but it didnt happen, so lets move on". I wouldnt think any less of you as i do now.

              Ive said this to you before, its never-ending. If Bargnani surprises us all, people are still going to say, well its not enough. If he continues to disappoint, well, people are going to say I told you so.
              I think you're reading too much into it, quite frankly, but, to be honest, I still think there's a good chance he'll be gone, soon. And I've never felt that the end of last season. I think with such a compressed offseason, making big trades became more difficult. If you notice, most of the deals we've seen over the last week have been signings, not trades. Trades seem to take a while to go through, for some reason. Maybe there's more back and forth and testing the waters. Who knows.

              Maybe I was more hopeful than anything, in writing the post. Looking at the evidence, it did appear that Colangelo might have changed his mind about Bargnani. And that still might be the case. This season seems to be a do or die season for many.

              Besides, it's not as if I have any inside information here. My guess on what someone 3 thousand miles away is as good as anyones. I just thought putting the facts together came up with an interesting possibility.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              Comment


              • tbihis wrote: View Post
                This is my gripe about Bargnani discussions, some people just cant go through one good post without mentioning all his "liabilities". We get it! For crying out loud. It starts with the good stuff and eventually somebody comes in and points out the bad. Irks me coz it just ruins good discussions.
                Credit where credit is due. Seems fair and I wish it was commonly held view point around here. Bargnani gets dumped on when he deserves it and when he doesn't. Actually I think he gets dumped on more if anyone dare mention something that could be viewed as positive. I'm rooting for him this year as long as he keeps working hard. Go Bargnani, go.

                Comment


                • Apollo wrote: View Post
                  That's your interpretation. He might have viewed it as he was more valuable as a jump shooter or that he had a higher level of energy throughout the game or he was less susceptible to injuries or whatever. Jumper shooter doesn't necessarily mean lazy. Is Ray Allen lazy? What about Reggie Miller?
                  Reggie Miller and Ray Allen were ALWAYS mainly jump shooters. And I did mention the injuries.

                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  You've gone off the track, you're in the ditch.
                  No, I'm not. The fact is that players who break out later in their careers are the exception. Saying this person can do something because an exception proves it doesn't generally ring true. What it means is that in some rare cases something can happen. FOr some reason, though, people think that Bargnani will become the exception.

                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Only his hard ass new coach who is praising the hell out of him(vocal leadership, focused on more of a post presence, focused on improving defense and rebounding) and the fact that he's reported before anyone on the team.
                  Great, a coach is saying nice things about a player. I've never heard that before. Nor have I heard things from a coach that didn't actually turn out to be true. That would be unheard of.

                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  No, he doesn't. I don't think Al Jeff is better than him on defense. That guy is a baaad defender. Either way, it doesn't matter. You're going to be forced to sit through it at the end of the day. It's going to play out, he's not going to get traded right now because it makes no sense. Welcome to at least one more season of Andrea Bargnani, Tim. Enjoy.
                  So how come tbihis tries to rake me through the coals for saying that I thought Bargnani might be traded, but you're allowed to say that he's not going to get traded?

                  And I never said Al Jefferson was a better defender. I didn't even allude to it. I just said Bargnani would have to be a better defender than any of those guys for him to be acceptable.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

                  Comment


                  • tbihis wrote: View Post
                    This is my gripe about Bargnani discussions, some people just cant go through one good post without mentioning all his "liabilities". We get it! For crying out loud. It starts with the good stuff and eventually somebody comes in and points out the bad. Irks me coz it just ruins good discussions.
                    Because for many of us the bad outweighs the good. Try having a discussion about any of the current Republican candidates. They all might have their good points, but there's no way in hell I'd want any of them in charge of their country. That's a scary thought.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.

                    Comment


                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Trades seem to take a while to go through, for some reason.
                      I hope that's a David Stern zing. I think the fact that both CP3 and Dwight haven't been traded yet makes some teams hesitant in moving any assets they possess for lesser players.
                      Two beer away from being two beers away.

                      Comment


                      • Mess wrote: View Post
                        I hope that's a David Stern zing. I think the fact that both CP3 and Dwight haven't been traded yet makes some teams hesitant in moving any assets they possess for lesser players.
                        Actually, it was just a general statement, but you're probably right. Until the big guys get sorted out, teams are probably hesitant to make any big moves because the terrain is so unsettled. Personally, I think the Clippers are a perfect trading partner to get Bargnani (playing behind Griffin and Jordan), but without knowing if they'll get Paul, then they're not going to do anything to risk not getting him. And Matt says he thinks Bargnani will be traded to the Lakers, but they're still in the running for Paul.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

                        Comment


                        • tbihis wrote: View Post
                          This is my gripe about Bargnani discussions, some people just cant go through one good post without mentioning all his "liabilities". We get it! For crying out loud. It starts with the good stuff and eventually somebody comes in and points out the bad. Irks me coz it just ruins good discussions.
                          I fail to see the point where you were forced to continue the discussion? If people don't like it... don't read it or get involved. Nobody forced you or apollo or anyone else is to respond to Tim or myself or anyone or vice versa.

                          Don't act like its everyone else who got the discussion going you and apollo started with:

                          I just hope that if he does turn it around people support him. If they don't then their dislike for him has nothing to do with basketball and they should self-analyze it.
                          hahahaha the guy hasnt even showed improvement and some people who post here are already throwing him under the bus EVEN IF HE IMPROVES. So i doubt that will happen.

                          apparently, even if he improves, will it be good enough for him to not become a LIABILITY?
                          apparently, even if he improves, its better to trade him coz for sure he will REGRESS.
                          apparently, even if he improves, will he be good enough to be a key part of a contender?
                          apparently, there is minimal chance he'll improve because historically, he never showed improvement or the desire or drive to improve.

                          So dont bank on people support him even if he turns around. These people supporting him are as big as Bargnani's chances of winning the MVP award during his basketball career. Very big.

                          Me, ive always said ill support him as long as he's a raptor. And improve or not, as long as he's a raptor, ill be a supporter.

                          Comment


                          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            Reggie Miller and Ray Allen were ALWAYS mainly jump shooters. And I did mention the injuries.
                            Right and they're not viewed as lazy.

                            Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            No, I'm not. The fact is that players who break out later in their careers are the exception. Saying this person can do something because an exception proves it doesn't generally ring true. What it means is that in some rare cases something can happen. FOr some reason, though, people think that Bargnani will become the exception.
                            He doesn't even need to "breakout" He just needs to raise his defense from mediocrity to average. I don't know if he'll do it but I'm certainly not going to completely blow off positive information because he's yet to improve his defense to date. I'm trying to approach this from a neutral perspective.

                            Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            Great, a coach is saying nice things about a player. I've never heard that before. Nor have I heard things from a coach that didn't actually turn out to be true. That would be unheard of.
                            So you're implying that the new Raptors coach could be telling us lies? Why do you feel he would start off his career like that in Toronto? Casey has a very good reputation.


                            Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            So how come tbihis tries to rake me through the coals for saying that I thought Bargnani might be traded, but you're allowed to say that he's not going to get traded?
                            I'm not going to get into complaints here. You can PM me if you see something wrong. I will say that you can post what you want as long as you abide by the rules.

                            Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            And I never said Al Jefferson was a better defender. I didn't even allude to it. I just said Bargnani would have to be a better defender than any of those guys for him to be acceptable.
                            Right and maybe he will, maybe he won't. We'll find out in 2012 I'm sure.

                            Comment


                            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Because for many of us the bad outweighs the good. Try having a discussion about any of the current Republican candidates. They all might have their good points, but there's no way in hell I'd want any of them in charge of their country. That's a scary thought.
                              Therein lies the frustration that I sense many people have when discussing Bargnani with you.

                              There have been threads about how Bargnani could improve to become a better player, or this thread talking about IF Bargnani DOES improve (ie: debate about candidates), but you always seem to take it back to "who cares, Bargnani should be traded" or "Amir is better than Bargnani" (ie: all the candidates are bad). People know your perspective on Bargnani quite well, that you would prefer him traded. BUT, if the thread is based on the assumption that Bargnani will be on the Raptors 2012 roster (like this one), it's frustrating when your input continues to be one-dimensional and falls outside that thread's frame of reference.

                              This thread is NOT discussing whether or not Bargnani should be traded. This thread is NOT discussing whether or not you think Bargnani will be traded. This thread is NOT discussing whether you think Bargnani can or will improve his defense/rebounding this season. The thread IS based on these two assumptions: 1) Bargnani will be a Raptor in 2012 2) Bargnani will improve defense/rebounding at least up to a respectable level under Casey. If you disagree with those two assumptions and therefore the entire premise of the thread, don't comment. We know you want Bargnani traded and doubt in his ability and/or desire to improve his defense/rebounding - but if you're not going to comment and add to the discussion within the definition of the thread, then there's no point reading/commenting on this particular thread.

                              It's like having a debate about whether black or white is the best color, and somebody comes along and posts a diatribe about why purple is the superior color and that anybody who continues the black/white debate is stupid because they are shades anyway, not colors. Who cares? For better or worse, the debate is whether black or white is the best color... respect the debate and stay on topic, or stay on the sideline.
                              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:48 PM.

                              Comment


                              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                Therein lies the frustration that I sense many people have when discussing Bargnani with you.

                                There have been threads about how Bargnani could improve to become a better player, or this thread talking about IF Bargnani DOES improve (ie: debate about candidates), but you always seem to take it back to "who cares, Bargnani should be traded" or "Amir is better than Bargnani" (ie: all the candidates are bad). People know your perspective on Bargnani quite well, that you would prefer him traded. BUT, if the thread is based on the assumption that Bargnani will be on the Raptors 2012 roster (like this one), it's frustrating when your input continues to be one-dimensional and falls outside that thread's frame of reference.

                                This thread is NOT discussing whether or not Bargnani should be traded. This thread is NOT discussing whether or not you think Bargnani will be traded. This thread is NOT discussing whether you think Bargnani can or will improve his defense/rebounding this season. The thread IS based on these two assumptions: 1) Bargnani will be a Raptor in 2012 2) Bargnani will improve defense/rebounding at least up to a respectable level under Casey. If you disagree with those two assumptions and therefore the entire premise of the thread, don't comment. We know you want Bargnani traded and doubt in his ability and/or desire to improve his defense/rebounding - but if you're not going to comment and add to the discussion within the definition of the thread, then there's no point reading/commenting on this particular thread.
                                so some one criticizing the 'premise' of the thread is not adding anything? You only add if you just assume what everyone else is assuming? (by the way the thread started as a, technically, comparison of Bargnani and Nowitzki, made by Casey, and NOT "what if Bargnani is awesome?" thread)


                                I think some people need to find Doug Smith's blog. Everything is always sunshine over there and you don't have to worry about Bargnani being criticized as anything BC does is gold.

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