Everything Bargnani

[heinz57]

lmao

you laugh now, but that's a front court that would strike fear into the hearts of the opposition.

ask the hart foundation.

[Multipaul]

you laugh now, but that's a front court that would strike fear into the hearts of the opposition.

ask the hart foundation.

What about axe and smash? DEMOLITION

[Tim W.]

As an advocate of keeping Andrea, I look at how he can fit in, and how the Raptors can adapt to off-set his weaknesses. Here are some numbers to illustrate my point, and some follow-up thoughts:

• Andrea's numbers: 21.4 ppg 5.7 Reb 1.8 apg .9 Blocks 4.7 FTA .819 FT%
• Dirk's --- numbers: 23.1 ppg 6.9 Reb 2.4 apg .7 Blocks 6.1 FTA .872 FT%

As you look at the above stats, one knows that Dallas is playing hot (outside of the injuries to Dirk), while Toronto is playing the opposite (with all its' injuries). The difference is, Dallas has adapted with Chandler, along with some great defensive support - while Toronto has neither of those latter attributes.

Now Andrea is not Dirk, but then again, Dirk makes twice the salary that Bargnani makes. Wouldn't that extra 10 million allow us to spend elsewhere, and try to make up the difference in what Dirk brings to the table (over Andrea).

One of the biggest questions I have, when judging stats & comparing the two, is wondering why Bargnani's listed as a Center, while Dirk is a Power Forward? If anything, they are the closest in respective styles, and unique to traditional Big men.



I checked out this stat line [provided by WhatWhat]. Dirk is listed as the 36th worst rebounding 7 footer, so that sorta shows how this stat is somewhat BS - and I'm not saying that rebounding is BS. In fact, if you check out facets to this unique statistic, Bargnani fares much better in other factors. Choosing rebounding as one's only correlation to what is a good 7 footer, is rather limiting in its' analysis. Andrea (like Dirk) is not your atypical Center. In fact, AB is more like Dirk as a PF.
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Here's the thing about Andrea. There is NO PLAYER on the current Raptors, who can shoot from anywhere on the Court, as he does:

• Jose can make threes, but he can't stand in the Post and take a pass (with few exceptions)
• Amir, and Davis can't shoot a 3
• Demar can't shoot a 3, nor can he stand in the Post and take any pass (on a normal basis)
• Kleiza is about the closest, but we all know what he's providing these days
• Weems, Barbosa & Bayless are lesser versions of Jose's range

Now before someone tears apart what these above players can & can't do, these statements are reflective of what is normal. Yes, Jose & Demar can score in the paint, but they can't stand there (normally), and grab a pass. Not if another Big is impeding such an event.
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Bottom line is, if Dallas can figure it out, why can't we. AB will not be Dirk, but he is cheaper. And that allows financial room for other options.
.

No, Andrea is not Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer, rebounder, passer and, most importantly, defender. And Dallas only made it to the Finals with Dirk the year he had an MVP season, with stats of 26 ppg and 9 rpg. And 3 out of the last 5 years Dallas lost in the first round despite averaging 56 wins. Teams without a good defensive front line underperform in the playoffs. I've got lots of history to back me up on this one.

And as I've argued, it doesn't matter how much a player makes if he doesn't have a positive effect on his team while on the floor.

And it's true that Bargnani can do what no one else on the team can do. But that says more about the team, than anything. And really, who cares. This team isn't built to win. Everyone agrees the team needs more talent in order to win. And it's a lot more difficult to find a great defensive center who isn't a liability on offense than a great scorer who isn't a liability on defense.

I would never argue that it would be extremely difficult to find another player who can do what Bargnani can do. But, really, what does that matter if he's a liability on the court? It's hard to find another player who can do what Turkoglu does (a 6-10 player who can handle the ball and pass like a guard), or Calderon (a highly efficient offensive player who shots a high percentage while racking up a lot of assists and few turnovers), or a multitude of players who have unique skillsets. Unfortunately unique skillsets don't win games.

[Multipaul]

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

If LeBron and Bargnani switched places, would the records reverse? Or Kobe and Bargnani. It doesn't mean they're comparable. This is obviously a ridiculous question. Durant is obviously surrounded by better players, but that doesn't mean that he is not a very big reason why Oklahoma is on pace to win 53 games this year. Hell, if Kleiza and Durant switched places, Oklahoma would still be a playoff team, most likely, but Toronto probably would be, too.

Funny but you just proved my point. Youre not downing on Durant coz he has the support cast that gets him wins. If Bargs had the same cast around him, i dont think youd be point him out. If he has the wins to back up his scoring, everybody will be happy, including you.

I never said Bargnani was lazy. You said no one thought that Durant was lazy, and that's because he's not. Bargnani isn't lazy, but he's a coaster. He coasts through games and for large parts of them he has no positive effect.

Youre right, by the same token, im not saying Boykins is short coz he cant dunk, im just saying he's vertically challenged. Gimme a break.

Well, there are lots of ways you can quantify defense, but you don't really have to if you know what to look for. It's pretty obvious Bargnani is a bad defensive player. I don't need stats to tell me that, but advanced stats DO back me up on this. This defense (no pun intended) of Bargnani only looking bad on defense because he's surrounded by bad defensive players doesn't work when you consider that Amir is considered to be a good defensive player playing on the same team.

Oh yes, Amir is a good defensive player. 2 fouls in the 1st qtr. Perkins is a good defensive player but i dont seem him getting quick fouls. And dont tell me Amir gets fouls coz Bargnani cant guard players and Amir has to be the last line of defense. Amir is a good defensive player, when he does play D. But when he doesnt play good D, he gets fouls. The same with Bargs, he plays good D on a post up, he gets a block. He doesnt play good D, you write something about him. Its two-way street, so to speak.

And you're right that a team of Perkins, Barnes, Battier, Brewer and Rondo would have trouble scoring. The problem with your argument is that you don't have to be a bad offensive player to be a good defensive player and visa versa. I'd peg six of the top 10 scorers in the league as above average defenders. Not average, but above average defenders.

The top 10 scorers in the league has a pau gasol, joakim noah, serge ibaka, joel anthony, deandre jordan to save their asses when they let out a defensive fart. bargs? he's 17th in the league in scoring. and he has joey dorsey to watch his back on D. yikes.

Yes, you need to score, but why do you have to have an extremely poor defender doing it for you? That doesn't make much sense.

coz most, if not all, the best defenders in the league is a liability in scoring. thats why artest needs kobe, turiaf needs amare, so on so forth.

And I agree that Bargnani would win a game of 1 on 1 with Perkins. Of course, the NBA is not a game of 1 on 1. It's a team game. And in a team game anyone can score. One night one guy can have a big night and another night someone else can. You don't NEED one guy scoring 20 ppg. In fact Boston has no one who scores 20 ppg on the team, yet they are among the best in the league. You can't let your teammates play defense, while you don't, though. EVERYONE needs to play defense in order to win. Especially in the playoffs.

yeah but if you got 4 guys scoring more then 15 pts a game. that aint gonna hurt either. how many 15 pt scorers do the raptors have?

Actually, the Spurs value defensive players over offensive players. If you can name me one below average defensive player the Spurs have kept for more than one season I will concede this argument.

I dont know. And this thread is not about the spurs. thats my alibi.

It doesn't matter how good the system or other players are. A weak link is a weak link and will hurt the entire team.

every team has a weak link. otherwise, that team will go 82 and 0. think about it.

Yes, it is. And if Bargnani wasn't an overall liability on the floor, it might mean a bit more. There have been plenty of players who had games we hadn't seen before, but the ones that had an impact were the ones who proved to have an overall positive effect while on the floor.

this is the NBA. if you dont have a positive effect on the floor, youll be in the D-League or somewhere in Europe. And Bargs is still here, so i guess......

Well, in fact there is doubt. If you put Bargnani beside Dwight Howard, they can certainly win games. Two problems with that, however. One is that there is only one Dwight Howard, and two, they still wouldn't win a Championship because opposing offenses would key in on Bargnani, especially during the playoffs, and expose him. Right now, Orlando has a front line of Howard and Bass, who's an above average defensive player, and they're still struggling defensively. That should tell you plenty right there.

yeah but Bass isnt scoring 20+ pts a game like Bargs. Think of it the other way my friend, make the other team work hard on its defense and you wont have to worry about yours as much.

[Ambidextrious]

Bargnani would be a lot better playing at the 4 with a defensive big at the 5 we also need a legit starting Small Forward ie. Perry Jones (6'11") freak of nature. Then our team would look drastically different. That would be a good direction to head towards.

[Ambidextrious]

lmao

That was rust. I am sayin Chris Bosh is the one on the right haha. I'll spare Bargnani this time.

[Raptorsss]

Bargnani would be a lot better playing at the 4 with a defensive big at the 5 we also need a legit starting Small Forward ie. Perry Jones (6'11") freak of nature. Then our team would look drastically different. That would be a good direction to head towards.

This is what I was saying... If the Raptors traded Calderon for Chandler and were able to sign Matt Barnes, this could've been a playoff team, even if its a 1 and done team.

[Tim W.]

Funny but you just proved my point. Youre not downing on Durant coz he has the support cast that gets him wins. If Bargs had the same cast around him, i dont think youd be point him out. If he has the wins to back up his scoring, everybody will be happy, including you.

No, I didn't prove your point. If you take away Durant completely and don't replace him with anyone, Oklahoma is still a playoff team. If Bargnani had the same cast as Durant does, he'd still be a liability on the defensive end and hurt the team.

Youre right, by the same token, im not saying Boykins is short coz he cant dunk, im just saying he's vertically challenged. Gimme a break.

Short and vertically challenged mean exactly the same thing. I have never said that Bargnani is lazy. A player can't become the player that Bargnani has by being lazy. Eddy Curry is lazy. Lots of guys who have loads of talent but never fulfilled their potential could be characterized as lazy. Bargnani plays a certain way, and it's a matter of fact. It's not lazy.

Oh yes, Amir is a good defensive player. 2 fouls in the 1st qtr. Perkins is a good defensive player but i dont seem him getting quick fouls. And dont tell me Amir gets fouls coz Bargnani cant guard players and Amir has to be the last line of defense. Amir is a good defensive player, when he does play D. But when he doesnt play good D, he gets fouls. The same with Bargs, he plays good D on a post up, he gets a block. He doesnt play good D, you write something about him. Its two-way street, so to speak.

Amir's biggest weakness is his penchant for fouling. It often prevents him from playing more than 30 mpg. The fact of the matter is, however, when he is on the floor, most of the time he plays good defense. Most of the time Bargnani is on the floor he is not playing good defense. His post defense is vastly overrated. He's a decent post defender against certain specific types of players making certain types of moves. But overall, he's not a good man to man defender or team defender. And Bargnani plays bad defense FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more than Amir commits a foul.

The top 10 scorers in the league has a pau gasol, joakim noah, serge ibaka, joel anthony, deandre jordan to save their asses when they let out a defensive fart. bargs? he's 17th in the league in scoring. and he has joey dorsey to watch his back on D. yikes.

Actually, he's got Amir Johnson to watch his back, and I'd pick him over Joel Anthony and probably DeAndre Jordan. And Kobe, Rose, Durant, LeBron and even Eric Gordon wouldn't suddenly be bad defenders if they played on the Raptors. What does it matter who you have as a teammate? Either you're a bad defensive player or you're not.

coz most, if not all, the best defenders in the league is a liability in scoring. thats why artest needs kobe, turiaf needs amare, so on so forth.

The 10 ALl-Defensive players last season were LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Howard, Gerald Wallace, Rondo, Duncan, Sefolosha, Josh Smith and Varejao. Only 2 would I classify as below average offensive players. And Artest isn't nearly the player he used to be, either offensively or defensively. You seem to forget that Artest has a career scoring average of 15 ppg. Hardly an offensive liability.

yeah but if you got 4 guys scoring more then 15 pts a game. that aint gonna hurt either. how many 15 pt scorers do the raptors have?

Well, right now they have two. I'm not arguing that the Raptors don't need to add talent, though.

every team has a weak link. otherwise, that team will go 82 and 0. think about it.

Actually, you can lose games and not have a weak link. Players are human. Sometimes they have bad games, sometimes they have good games. And some weaknesses hurt teams more than others.

this is the NBA. if you dont have a positive effect on the floor, youll be in the D-League or somewhere in Europe. And Bargs is still here, so i guess......

Loads of players in the NBA have a negative effect on their team. Some don't play very much, some play, but on bad teams, and most are young players who teams hope will improve. The Raptors are full of players who have a negative effect on the team. Hell, DeRozan has a negative effect on the team, right now, but since he's only played a season and a half, you hope that will change.

yeah but Bass isnt scoring 20+ pts a game like Bargs. Think of it the other way my friend, make the other team work hard on its defense and you wont have to worry about yours as much.

No offense, but I hope I never play basketball with you. And the fact of the matter is that whoever Bargnani is defending almost always has a much better than average game. When you play a team like Denver, you expect Carmelo to get his 25 ppg. That's pretty much a given. What hurts you is when Nene scores 25, as well as Carmelo.

[Tim W.]

My point is that many of you seem to be so worried about what you can do to hide Bargnani's weaknesses. Instead of trying to figure out how to make Bargnani LESS of a liability, why not simply get players that aren't liabilities? Doesn't that make so much more sense?

[JalenRose5]

Bargnani is a glorified Ryan Andersen! Think about it......

[Ambidextrious]

My point is that many of you seem to be so worried about what you can do to hide Bargnani's weaknesses. Instead of trying to figure out how to make Bargnani LESS of a liability, why not simply get players that aren't liabilities? Doesn't that make so much more sense?

Im sayin keep the guy for 1 or max 2 years. So we can give him a chance to play in a different role. Im pretty sure he'd be less of a liability at playing behind a defensive big. why not try it out?

This is what I was saying... If the Raptors traded Calderon for Chandler and were able to sign Matt Barnes, this could've been a playoff team, even if its a 1 and done team.

Good point. I always thought we would have had a good shot a making it to the playoffs. I can't say i'd go as far as to say they can would surpass that by advancing.

Shoot finally found someone else on here from Ottawa. Whats good brotha?

[Brasky]

My point is that many of you seem to be so worried about what you can do to hide Bargnani's weaknesses. Instead of trying to figure out how to make Bargnani LESS of a liability, why not simply get players that aren't liabilities? Doesn't that make so much more sense?

Bargnani would be perfectly fine hidden on the pine in a backup role. Ride him while he's hot, bench him when he's not. If he's showing effort defensively, hedging and recovering hard on ball screens, making quick rotations, and chasing loose balls, then you can afford to play him 30+ minutes as a backup even when his long two pointers aren't falling.

[Tim W.]

Im sayin keep the guy for 1 or max 2 years. So we can give him a chance to play in a different role. Im pretty sure he'd be less of a liability at playing behind a defensive big. why not try it out?

Because Bargnani's trade value this summer is about as high as it's going to be. He won't be a BYC player, anymore. He'll only be 26 years old, so he'd still be considered young and some teams might still feel he's got more potential.

Wait and you're basically stunting the growth of the team because you're giving 35 mpg to a player who shouldn't be a long term part of the plan.

Good point. I always thought we would have had a good shot a making it to the playoffs. I can't say i'd go as far as to say they can would surpass that by advancing.

You think adding Chandler and taking away Calderon would add 10-15 wins?????? Are you kidding me? Calderon is one of only two player on the team who consistently has a positive effect on the team, and you think by trading him for Chandler, the team is suddenly a playoff team? You vastly overestimate the amount of talent on this roster.

[Tim W.]

Bargnani would be perfectly fine hidden on the pine in a backup role. Ride him while he's hot, bench him when he's not. If he's showing effort defensively, hedging and recovering hard on ball screens, making quick rotations, and chasing loose balls, then you can afford to play him 30+ minutes as a backup even when his long two pointers aren't falling.

True, but he's not being paid like a backup, and the team has not developed him as a backup. He's more valuable as a trade asset than as a future bench player.