Everything Bargnani

[JoePanini]

Defense has to come from everyone, though. Especially those on your front line. You can conceivably make up for his poor rebounding numbers (although I'd debate that), but you can't make up for him being a liability on the defensive end.

If he scored 30 or more on a consistent basis, then I can see thinking about a future with him. But he doesn't.

Tim, I think by now we all know it's a rare happening when Bargnani plays defense. I'm just happy he's showing he cares again, and actually is putting in effort. I think more 30 point games will come though, and a lot more often.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

And he didn't have a great game, he had a great scoring game. He actually shot a decent percentage for a center who is 41st among forwards/centers in the league for FG%. Add that to inept defense, a whopping 4 rebounds, at least one of which actually fell into his hands instead of him doing anything...great game? I don't think so. Scored a lot yes. But as I put in the post game, where it was said it was a blowout without him - I don't see it. Put in someone who played defense, hit the boards and scored at a lower rate (he did take 26 shots) with others taking the shots, it makes it a different game.

Take off the blinders and watch the entire game, not just one end of the court.

You can't compare Bargs to other centers. He plays nothing like them.

BTW 57% while taking a lot of jumpshots and 3s (5/6) != "decent percentage". That's a great %.

[jrdyck]

I dont know why every day it seems like we need to revisit the same damn facts, Can score the shit out of the basketball, cant rebound , cant defend, Nowitzki lite etc, etc etc....

The thing is that 99% of the people on this board would agree with every point you just made about Bargnani. He's been a Raptor for 4 1/2 years already, so we all know what he can and can't do. It's just that some people seem to love what he brings to the team and some people not so much. Maybe we should stop "arguing" about the individual Bargnani and start to consider what he means to the short-term and long-term success of the RAPTORS, for better or worse.

For example, he scored 38 points vs. the Heat on Wednesday, yet only grabbed 4 boards and played relatively subpar defence. So, did he contribute positively to the outcome of the game? I would argue yes, but some may argue no.

Can we at least try it this way?

Just a suggestion to Bargnani Republic.

[ebrian]

I assume someone watched that game. Who was Bargnani guarding?

The problem, in terms of looking at the team as a whole, is that we're a really bad team right now and Bargnani gets a lot of touches. In a few years, Ed Davis will be hitting his prime, as well as Amir Johnson and the PG/SF we draft this summer. At that point, which less rock to go around, Bargnani won't be scoring as much and he'll still be a horrible rebounder and defender.

At that point -- this argument will be over. Until then, with a horrible team, this debate can last forever, especially when Bargs scores 30+ every once in awhile.

[Maleko]

You can't compare Bargs to other centers. He plays nothing like them.

BTW 57% while taking a lot of jumpshots and 3s (5/6) != "decent percentage". That's a great %.

He is further down if you compare to PF's. And yes it is a great percentage...for one game. You are right he plays nothing like other centers, and that is the issue. If you watch him play against PF's as so many are to say is his 'natural position', his defense and rebounding is atrocious, even worse than when he guards C's.

[Multipaul]

He is further down if you compare to PF's. And yes it is a great percentage...for one game. You are right he plays nothing like other centers, and that is the issue. If you watch him play against PF's as so many are to say is his 'natural position', his defense and rebounding is atrocious, even worse than when he guards C's.

Argument witout any factual basis. Just hyperbole to piss people off.

[karim_nasir]

The thing is that 99% of the people on this board would agree with every point you just made about Bargnani. He's been a Raptor for 4 1/2 years already, so we all know what he can and can't do. It's just that some people seem to love what he brings to the team and some people not so much. Maybe we should stop "arguing" about the individual Bargnani and start to consider what he means to the short-term and long-term success of the RAPTORS, for better or worse.

For example, he scored 38 points vs. the Heat on Wednesday, yet only grabbed 4 boards and played relatively subpar defence. So, did he contribute positively to the outcome of the game? I would argue yes, but some may argue no.

Can we at least try it this way?

Just a suggestion to Bargnani Republic.

he scored 38 points but was a minus 10 in the game

[Apollo]

Hahahaha, yeah. How does that happen?

[Multipaul]

Pure rubbish, the Raps have a guy that can drop 38 pts vs Lebron/Wade/Bosh, and you argue he did not have a postive impact on the game.

Seriously, I hope you get ur wish and Bargs gets traded, and we have ZERO offense. You whiny prats will be "ohhh no we shouldn't have traded bargs, oh no what do we do now"

Give it a rest. Seriously "some would argue that his 38 pts did not contribute positively".

This is becoming a farce if you think dropping 40 pts is no big deal.

[Joey]

he scored 38 points but was a minus 10 in the game

He is -10 because the team lost by 10 points. (8 points actually, but still)
Even if Kobe or Lebron net 38 in a game and their team loses, they'll likely be Minus-something as they are on the floor the most, scoring points, but also on the floor while the other team took the lead. So its not fair to say the 38 wasn't 'positive'. If he wasn't scoring those 38, him and everyone else on the floor, would be much worse off in the +/- catergory. The fact that he was -10 and we lost by 8, shows that. He was just on the floor the most, and they were playing better than us.
If we was -20 and we only lost by 4, THEN he is being detrimental to the team, as it is clear he is not involved in helping get us close. (ie He's on when we go down, he's off when we charge back.) Thats not the case. At least with this game.

[Multipaul]

He is -10 because the team lost by 10 points. (8 points actually, but still)
Even if Kobe or Lebron net 38 in a game and their team loses, they'll likely be Minus-something as they are on the floor the most, scoring points, but also on the floor while the other team took the lead. So its not fair the 38 wasn't 'positive' as if he wasn't scoring those 38, him and everyone else on the floor, would likely be much worse off in the +/- catergory. The fact that he was -10 and we lost by 8, shows that. He was just on the floor the most, and they were playing better than us.
If we was -20 and we only lost 4, THEN he being detrimental to the team, as it is clear he is not involved in helping get us close. He's on when we go down, he's off when we charge back. Thats not the case. At least with this game.

Man, you know ur stuff. That was well said.

[Joey]

Man, you know ur stuff. That was well said.

Just hoping to clear up some confusion.

38 points on 58% shooting is virtually NEVER a bad thing.

[Multipaul]

Just hoping to clear up some confusion.

38 points on 58% shooting is virtually NEVER a bad thing.

Unless ur Chris Bosh on the Raps last year....stat padder....lol

[Apollo]

Just hoping to clear up some confusion.

38 points on 58% shooting is virtually NEVER a bad thing.

I don't think anyone criticized the 38 points. I think people criticized the -10 even though he scored 38 points. That's a funny stat, I don't care what anyone says.

[Joey]

I don't think anyone criticized the 38 points. I think people criticized the -10 even though he scored 38 points. That's a funny stat, I don't care what anyone says.

Yes, but I already sort of pointed out that it's NOT all that funny. It actually makes perfect sense.
Just last week Kobe put up 20pts but was -16. Melo put up 28 points but was -8.
+/- doesn't care about individual stats. It only reflects about how your team did while you were on the floor.
I know you know all of this, but then I'm not sure how you can criticize the +/- of a guy who did the "most" to help the team win, but meanwhile, Amir grabs 11 rebounds but is a worse -12.