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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what the link is suppose to do. The journalist obviously has an axe to grind and admits himself
    Well he may. But neither of us really know that do we? It would be the same if someone in Phoenix interested in the Raptors got a Feschuk piece (The Arizona Republic is of similar standing and the writer is a columnist there) who is probably one of the better writers around here on the Raptors in msm and a frequent critiquer.

    The point of the link was to provide a view that is not a rarity even in NY these days. I would actually have somewhat less regard for the NY viewpoint simply because they "actually" think they know most about the game...and these are the same people who hailed his signing a few years ago.

    Regarding Sarver and his spending: He took over before the 04-05 season and Shaq was traded for before the 08 playoffs. In the interim the payroll for the team was 05-07 was 119 mill, 82 mill & 71 mill (all in lux. territory I believe). JJ was traded Aug '05. The payroll was 119 mill. Far be it for me to grieve for ownership on spending large but I would think the spending was a bit overthetop. He then got a bit tired of a lack of results and decided to take Kerr's advice on direction change (Shaq & defense). Entitled dont you think as would ownership here (I prefer BC to stay more because of the timing re the pos. of the franchise)? Shaq was a horrible acquisition but shit happens. And I also understand DAntoni's frustration at the end. No question his input was non grata at the end ...something I believe he had quite a bit with BC.

    Anyway where was I. My opposition to DAntoni as coach today with the Raps is simply that I am tired of the disregard and unaccountability afforded to the defensive side of the ball since BC has been here. I think he has seen the light but pieces of unsubtantiated rumor like this show up and start discussions like this. I just dont think the team is a fit for the old DAntoni (he hasnt changed yet). My idea of a fit would be someone like Adelman (probably a hard get).

    One last point: the judgement DAntoni showed when he took over the Knicks job considering the state of that franchise and the owner Dolan was much lacking. He chose it over the HC job in Chicago who were courting him fiercely. I believe it was known at the time they had the #1 overall in that draft (Rose). I think it may have been the money...not to begrudge him on that.
    Last edited by Bendit; Sun Mar 27, 2011, 10:20 PM.

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    • smushmush wrote: View Post
      If we can get Raymond Felton (since he wants a starting job and he is a backup in Denver) and Wilson Chandler or Aaron Afflalo from a Bargs trade - that trade will not be bad imo. I don't see how the Denver Nuggets are going to pay Nene Hilario, Kenyon Martin, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Afflalo imo.
      I think Chandler is the odd man out right there because they have Danilo locked up. Great idea. Felton is a very nice PG, he's pissed about coming off the bench but it doesn't look to be changing. If D'Antoni does end up in Toronto then I see him coming here a real possibility because D'Antoni loved Felton. I could see Colangelo bringing in a wing or PG with a Bargnani trade in the off-season. Maybe he could work a Bargnani for Felton and Afflalo or Chandler(S&T)? I never checked if the numbers work but the Raptors have the TPE to play with as well ass it's good for a complete year. Who knows but it's fun to think about all the possibilities. This summer should be fun to watch play out. Things are on the rise after a depressing last off-season.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        Like Matt said, Draft Express is ranking Jonas as the 3rd best prospect in the draft. They're ranking Kanter 9th.

        NBADraft.net doesn't usually get it right. Neither does DraftExpress.com. Not when we're in March and the draft is at the end of June.
        Without a doubt there's no site that can predict the drafts picks to a T, but it's interesting that there's such parity between the 2 on certain players. At the end of the day it's a persons opinion though, right?

        But, after checking out what they say about Jonas I have to say that I wouldn't complain if the Raps got him. I don't want to go as far as saying that they NEED him, but from the looks of it he's the most "legit" centre type player in the draft, along with Canter. Don't hate me if I'm a little hesitant about another Euro centre (no matter how different they may be). And, at the same time...would you rather we draft ANOTHER young prospect or get this whole experiment (for lack of a better word) moving forward with a little more experience on next years roster?

        Comment


        • Bendit wrote: View Post
          Well he may. But neither of us really know that do we? It would be the same if someone in Phoenix interested in the Raptors got a Feschuk piece (The Arizona Republic is of similar standing and the writer is a columnist there) who is probably one of the better writers around here on the Raptors in msm and a frequent critiquer.

          The point of the link was to provide a view that is not a rarity even in NY these days. I would actually have somewhat less regard for the NY viewpoint simply because they "actually" think they know most about the game...and these are the same people who hailed his signing a few years ago.

          Regarding Sarver and his spending: He took over before the 04-05 season and Shaq was traded for before the 08 playoffs. In the interim the payroll for the team was 05-07 was 119 mill, 82 mill & 71 mill (all in lux. territory I believe). JJ was traded Aug '05. The payroll was 119 mill. Far be it for me to grieve for ownership on spending large but I would think the spending was a bit overthetop. He then got a bit tired of a lack of results and decided to take Kerr's advice on direction change (Shaq & defense). Entitled dont you think as would ownership here (I prefer BC to stay more because of the timing re the pos. of the franchise)? Shaq was a horrible acquisition but shit happens. And I also understand DAntoni's frustration at the end. No question his input was non grata at the end ...something I believe he had quite a bit with BC.

          Anyway where was I. My opposition to DAntoni as coach today with the Raps is simply that I am tired of the disregard and unaccountability afforded to the defensive side of the ball since BC has been here. I think he has seen the light but pieces of unsubtantiated rumor like this show up and start discussions like this. I just dont think the team is a fit for the old DAntoni (he hasnt changed yet). My idea of a fit would be someone like Adelman (probably a hard get).

          One last point: the judgement DAntoni showed when he took over the Knicks job considering the state of that franchise and the owner Dolan was much lacking. He chose it over the HC job in Chicago who were courting him fiercely. I believe it was known at the time they had the #1 overall in that draft (Rose). I think it may have been the money...not to begrudge him on that.
          Try the Facebook page before siding with Robert Sarver.
          Robert Sarver is a cheap ass.

          A quick review:
          Swingman Joe Johnson wanted $50 million for his new contract and Sarver only offered him $45 million, which ensued his trade to Atlanta for draft picks and Boris Diaw. A week later, the Suns signed Quentin Richardson to a 6 year $42 million deal. A year later he was traded for Kurt Thomas and cash.

          Trading Shawn Marion, who was made for the run and gun system and Marcus Banks, another poor signing, for Shaquille O' Neal. O' Neal was later traded a year and a half later for Sasha Pavlovic and Ben Wallace, who were both bought out of their contracts.

          Sarver has had a huge history of trading draft picks.

          2004
          In his first year as owner, Sarver traded the 7th pick in the draft (Luol Deng) for 2 future draft picks and cash.

          2005
          Sarver traded the 21st pick in the NBA draft (Nate Robinson) along with Quentin Richardson for Kurt Thomas and cash.

          2006
          Sarver traded the 21st pick in the draft (Rajon Rondo, the point guard for the champion Boston Celtics) for cash and a first round pick which was later dealt for cash.

          2007
          Sarver traded the 24th pick in the 2007 draft (Rudy Fernandez who has enjoyed success in Portland) for cash. Also in 2007, Sarver traded Kurt Thomas and 2 first round draft picks for cash.

          Most importantly, Sarver did this all during the prime of Steve Nash's career. Nash won the MVP twice during his stay in Phoenix, but missed out on multiple chances to win an NBA title. Sure some of these weren't Sarver's fault such as Joe Johnson breaking his nose, Amare and Boris leaving the bench or Tim Duncan's 3 pointer, but Nash could have won a title still. If Nash would have been able to keep the coach who's style was made for him, kept his ideal swingman Joe Johnson and been able to keep two of those draft picks then any expert would tell you that this team would have won at least one title maybe more. Sarver may be very eccentric and cheer for his team and be able to hold a foam finger, but the way Sarver has ran this team tells us that he is nothing but a cheap ass and doesn't deserve to own an NBA team.


          I followed the Suns during their "7 Seconds or Less" tour. And in retrospect I wish I had seen all their games. Not since the days of Magic Johnson leading the Lakers, had anything in the NBA play like this. They won in spite of Sarver. And imagine if only a few of those picks had pulled. Or a player more had stayed. He was in a situation with Nash where all he had to do was ride the bus. Instead he threw his weight around. Saved a few bucks. And now where are they? I would welcome D'Antoni here with open arms. He is such an upgrade over Triano it is almost inconceivable. The article referenced before could only have been written by some Suns / Sarver media flunky. Full of misdirected hate.

          Triano and Colangelo have worked together well. And c'mon you can see that in BC's DNA is the wish to build a fast athletic team. And team that is fun to watch. Would that not be preferable to what many NBA teams do? It would for me.
          “I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.

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          • Apollo wrote: View Post
            I think Chandler is the odd man out right there because they have Danilo locked up. Great idea. Felton is a very nice PG, he's pissed about coming off the bench but it doesn't look to be changing. If D'Antoni does end up in Toronto then I see him coming here a real possibility because D'Antoni loved Felton. I could see Colangelo bringing in a wing or PG with a Bargnani trade in the off-season. Maybe he could work a Bargnani for Felton and Afflalo or Chandler(S&T)? I never checked if the numbers work but the Raptors have the TPE to play with as well ass it's good for a complete year. Who knows but it's fun to think about all the possibilities. This summer should be fun to watch play out. Things are on the rise after a depressing last off-season.
            This. This. This.
            “I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.

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            • malefax wrote: View Post
              I wonder if his 0 rebounds might have something to do with the bone spurs in his ankle that caused him to miss the clippers game on the very next day.

              Nah, that would make too much sense.
              Above all, Im looking for an explanation for below average rebounding so you can stop with this nonsense "Nah, that would make too much sense"

              If the reason he is not grabbing boards is that he is hurt, OK. But then why is he playing hurt?

              Bottom line is there needs to be an explanation if your centre to get ZERO rebounds. Not just "oh well, Bargs will be Bargs", or "oh well, bad game". Even in a bad game, you get a certain number of rebounds by just being there (ie. Ajinca).

              Now with the news that Raps might want to trade him, it makes even less sense to play him when hurt because things like that diminish his trade value.

              Even without this zero game, Bargs averages about 5.5 per 36 mins when just about every other centre has about 7 per 36 mins (and any D-League guy you wanna call up would get that too). Overall there is something fishy about Bargs rebounding, I think its more mental than anything. But he is going to have to fix that going forward, for the team's sake, (and for his own sake if you want to be real about it....his personal numbers etc would look at lot better at 22/7 which is passable, versus 22/5 which is a huge red flag)

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              • Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                Above all, Im looking for an explanation for below average rebounding so you can stop with this nonsense "Nah, that would make too much sense"

                If the reason he is not grabbing boards is that he is hurt, OK. But then why is he playing hurt?

                Bottom line is there needs to be an explanation if your centre to get ZERO rebounds. Not just "oh well, Bargs will be Bargs", or "oh well, bad game". Even in a bad game, you get a certain number of rebounds by just being there (ie. Ajinca).

                Now with the news that Raps might want to trade him, it makes even less sense to play him when hurt because things like that diminish his trade value.

                Even without this zero game, Bargs averages about 5.5 per 36 mins when just about every other centre has about 7 per 36 mins (and any D-League guy you wanna call up would get that too). Overall there is something fishy about Bargs rebounding, I think its more mental than anything. But he is going to have to fix that going forward, for the team's sake, (and for his own sake if you want to be real about it....his personal numbers etc would look at lot better at 22/7 which is passable, versus 22/5 which is a huge red flag)
                +1 totally agree with you there. Man i wish we had Chandler so we could have gotten rid of Bargnani. I don't understand why he doesn't grab 7+ rbpg, your a 7 footer for god sake.

                Comment


                • I don't think Denver would part with Affalo. Him, Nene, and Lawson are who Denver is trying to build around.

                  One of the Raptors biggest problems is defending the paint. I think it is clear that Bargnani is never going to contribute to that. He could possibly be an effective player if he was next to someone like Tyson Chandler, him and Dirk this year have been a pretty tough front court. Furthermore, I think it has also become apparent that you cannot play effective defence with Bargnani and Calderon playing at the same time.

                  I think it would be a great step in the right direction if this team could unload Bargnani, and replace him in the rotation with someone who provides a legit post presence.

                  In the draft the team could either add a PG (Irving, Walker, Knight), or SF (DWilliams, Barnes, TJones), or possibly a C (Kanter).

                  Next season they could come back with a guard rotation of Calderon, DD, Bayless (replacing Barbosa backing up Demar), and a newcomer PG(drafted, FA, or someone obtained by trading Bargnani), a new starting 3 (also either drafted, FA, or obtained in trade), Davis, Johnson, Dorsey and a new starting Centre (likely FA, or obtained in trade)

                  The team should either fire Colangelo and replace him ASAP, or extend him for two more years with a team option on a third, otherwise they risk going to the draft with no long term plan. I don't think D'Antoni is the right guy to take over one of the worst defensive teams in the league. I think they should go after someone in the Tom Thibodeau mold, to take over the rebuild for the next few years, and to demand more accountability on the defensive end. If and when this team gets competitive in a few years, that would be a better time to go after a more established, championship level coach.
                  Last edited by madeupid25; Mon Mar 28, 2011, 01:47 AM.

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                  • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                    I believe you’re quite mistaken. Andrea had an arguably more productive rookie year then Ed in the same amount of minutes. As well he never had the opportunity Ed has had until this year. Ed has been given every opportunity to develop his game in his ROOKIE YEAR because we are a rebuilding team and have had nothing to play for all year. Andrea although he technically has played 5 years in the NBA we could argue he's never had a defined role or purpose until this year. If you look at his stats from previous years you'd be able to understand he has been misused and underdeveloped by his previous coaches and circumstances and his numbers reflect this (random and no consistency). Unlike Ed who have been given the green light from day 1 Andrea had to earn his playing time because the Raptors were playoff contenders and had veterans who needed minutes. The goal was making the playoffs as appose to developing young players. Who knows where Andrea's game would be today if we treated him like Ed from day 1. I consider this season a benchmark year for Andrea, just like it has been for Demar and a lesser extend Ed. If anything you should be judging his future based upon this year not his previous 4. And because of this I believe he has the a higher ceiling than Ed.
                    I don't think it's even arguable that Bargnani had a more productive rookie season than Davis. Bargnani played 2 more minutes, but the the only thing he bettered Davis at was scoring. Davis has a PER of 15.9 as opposed to Bargnani's 12.8. And since Bargnani played 2 more minutes per game than Davis in his rookie season, I fail to see how Bargnani wasn't given the same chance as Davis. He's started 256 games out of 300 games since his rookie season. Again, I fail to see how he hasn't been given a chance. And since Triano took over, he's averaged at least 35 mpg.

                    And if we're judging his future based on this year, I don't see how he has a higher ceiling than Davis. Unless you are talking about offensively. Bargnani has shown little inclination to defend or rebound and is basically a one dimensional player. One dimensional players don't tend to have that high of a ceiling.
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                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      I don't think it's even arguable that Bargnani had a more productive rookie season than Davis. Bargnani played 2 more minutes, but the the only thing he bettered Davis at was scoring. Davis has a PER of 15.9 as opposed to Bargnani's 12.8. And since Bargnani played 2 more minutes per game than Davis in his rookie season, I fail to see how Bargnani wasn't given the same chance as Davis. He's started 256 games out of 300 games since his rookie season. Again, I fail to see how he hasn't been given a chance. And since Triano took over, he's averaged at least 35 mpg.

                      And if we're judging his future based on this year, I don't see how he has a higher ceiling than Davis. Unless you are talking about offensively. Bargnani has shown little inclination to defend or rebound and is basically a one dimensional player. One dimensional players don't tend to have that high of a ceiling.
                      He could have averaged 48 minutes for all I care. The Raptors have been all over the place in his previous years. From playoffs to lottery bound never any consitency. I can't even imaging the different combination and number of players that have come and gone in the previous 4 years hes been here. The key is the Raptors never had defined role for him. He basically wasted four years standing at the 3 point line. I don't know whose fault that is but that's not what you drafted him for. For example with Demar his role is growing systematically year by year. Each summer hes expanding a different aspect of his game, and the coaches are instructing him to play to his strenghts, but more importantly giving him the in game repetition to develope those skills hes practising and look what the results have been. Maybe if we would have been in a rebuild or not so focused on developing Bosh, things would have progressed much quciker for Andrea. So don't give me this he played 30 + minutes bullshit. 30 is just a number and wanna know something even cooler. If you multiply his 30 min avg by the number of games he played you would also get his total minutes played for the year isant that so cool I just love stats.

                      I don't see how Davis has a higher ceiling that Bargnani unless your talking about Defence. Davis has shown little inclination for hitting wide open jumpers, making free throws or having any resemblance of a post up game. The majority of his points are the result of wide open dunks or offensive rebounds. Since he is a complete liablilty on offence he is left open and should be getting rebounds and putbacks. Seems to me like Andrea has a much easier hill to climb. See ball grab ball. Inflate rebound numbers shut you up.
                      Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Mon Mar 28, 2011, 01:56 AM.

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                      • nubreed000 wrote: View Post
                        Without a doubt there's no site that can predict the drafts picks to a T, but it's interesting that there's such parity between the 2 on certain players. At the end of the day it's a persons opinion though, right?
                        Here's the key thing to remember. These two sites go about things very differently.

                        NBAdraft.net gives you a mock draft based on the inverted standings all season long. Their whole mock draft is based on a order that probably would come to reality. They're slotting guys in at places based on team need and player talent and so it's not ranking the players from best to worst.

                        DraftExpress.com gives you a prospect ranking for most of the year. They're ranking from best to worst in their opinion. They offer mock good mock drafts leading up close to the draft. Because of this I personally feel they are the better product. Opinion stops at talent evaluation and doesn't include who might be drafting where.

                        Comment


                        • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          He could have averaged 48 minutes for all I care. The Raptors have been all over the place in his previous years. From playoffs to lottery bound never any consitency. I can't even imaging the different combination and number of players that have come and gone in the previous 4 years hes been here. The key is the Raptors never had defined role for him. He basically wasted four years standing at the 3 point line. I don't know whose fault that is but that's not what you drafted him for. For example with Demar his role is growing systematically year by year. Each summer hes expanding a different aspect of his game, and the coaches are instructing him to play to his strenghts, but more importantly giving him the in game repetition to develope those skills hes practising and look what the results have been. Maybe if we would have been in a rebuild or not so focused on developing Bosh, things would have progressed much quciker for Andrea. So don't give me this he played 30 + minutes bullshit. 30 is just a number and wanna know something even cooler. If you multiply his 30 min avg by the number of games he played you would also get his total minutes played for the year isant that so cool I just love stats.
                          What do you mean they've never had a defined role for Bargnani. Except for the brief period when Jermaine O'Neal was a Raptor, he's been groomed to be, and then later became, the Raptor's starting center. As for the minutes he played, I really don't see how they're irrelevant, except that they go against your argument. Playing a lot of minutes generally means that a player is being given a chance. If you want to pretend they don't, then by all means do that, but don't try to convince any reasonable person otherwise. Most young players would kill to be given the chance that Bargnani has been given on the Raptors.

                          Your argument, unfortunately, is yet another excuse about how Bargnani's issues are the fault of others, and not himself.

                          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          I don't see how Davis has a higher ceiling that Bargnani unless your talking about Defence. Davis has shown little inclination for hitting wide open jumpers, making free throws or having any resemblance of a post up game. The majority of his points are the result of wide open dunks or offensive rebounds. Since he is a complete liablilty on offence he is left open and should be getting rebounds and putbacks. Seems to me like Andrea has a much easier hill to climb. See ball grab ball. Inflate rebound numbers shut you up.
                          Davis has the second highest shooting percentage and true shooting percentage on the entire team. He moves very well without the ball, knows where to go and be on offense and sees the floor well. He's also an excellent rebounder. To call him a liability on offense is ridiculous. You don't have to be a threat to hit a 15 foot jumper to be a threat on the offensive end. If Davis' man leaves him, there's a very good chance that Davis will end up scoring on him, so he can't be left alone on offense. Thus, he's not a liability on the offensive end.

                          Besides, Davis has shown a lot of flashes of offensive ability, including a developing post game and the ability to hit the short jumper. Besides, learning how to hit a jumper is probably the easiest basketball skill to learn.
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                          • In-Depth Study: Andrea Bargnani's Contract Vs. the NBA

                            After the positive feedback I got from my “in-depth study: Amir Johnson’s contract vs. the NBA”, I decided to do one for Andrea Bargnani (Albertan_10 put the bug in my ear so if you like it, thank him, if you don’t tell him where to go and how to get there!) Just when I had all my research complied, “The Rumor” broke. At first I wasn’t sure whether it was worth posting given that he may not be around next season, but after putting in four hours of cutting/pasting/searching/page jumping I wasn’t going to throw in the towel. Besides, it might give us a better idea of what level of player he is, and whether he will be wanted on another team. Also, when it comes to Andrea Bargnani, what do we even know about him?!?!?

                            Position: Plays Center, but might be better suited to play the PF or even the SF?
                            Talent and Potential: Either a franchise player in the making or back-up towel boy for the Iowa Energy.
                            Trade Value: I have no friggin’ clue.

                            Bargnani is the dead horse on this site, but I guess we just can’t help ourselves. I’ll state my bias at the outset: Was ok with his selection as a No.1. I watched his first couple seasons with optimism. I was disappointed with his lack progress (IMHO) last season, and this season he has failed to impress me at all. I wouldn’t call myself a “hater” but if I zero love for the “big spaghetti” and were I the gm I would’ve shopped him at the deadline. However, A LOT of my disappointment stems from the fact that Bargnani IS a former No.1 and has the largest contract on the team (although Jose makes more this season). My first step in trying to figure out whether Barg’s is boom or bust was to try to get a sense of where he is on the allstar/starter/bench player/scrub spectrum.

                            All salaries are complements of our friends at HoopsHype.com
                            W/ Statistics provided by Basketball-Reference.com
                            My spreadsheet is available to those who want it, by contacting me.


                            Bargnani’s contract looks like this

                            2010-2011: 8 mil
                            2011-2012: 9 mil
                            2012-2013: 10 mil
                            2013-2014: 11 mil
                            2014:2015: 12 mil

                            Bargs makes 8 mil this year, and 12 mil in his final year for an average salary of 10 mil. So where would those salaries (8,10, 12) show up on other teams, using their current roster salaries?


                            Western Playoff teams Eastern Playoff Teams
                            San Antonio 5th, 4th, 2nd Chicago 3rd, 3rd, 2nd
                            Lakers 5th, 4th, 4th Boston 5th, 3rd (tied w/ Ray Allen), 3rd
                            Dallas 6th, 5th, 3rd Miami 4th, 4th, 4th
                            Oklahoma 2nd, 2nd, 2nd Orlando 5th, 4th, 4th
                            Denver 3rd, 3rd, 2nd Atlanta 5th, 4th, 3rd
                            Portland 5th, 3rd, 2nd Philly 3rd, 3rd, 3rd
                            Orleans 4th, 3rd, 2nd New York 4th, 4th, 4th
                            Memphis 3rd, 3rd, 3rd Indy 4th, 3rd, 1st

                            West Lottery Teams East Lottery Teams
                            Houston 3rd, 3rd, 2nd Charlotte 3rd, 1st, 1st
                            Phoenix 3rd, 3rd, 2nd Milwaukee 4th (tied w/ Salmons) 3rd, 2nd
                            Utah 5th, 3rd, 3rd Detroit 4th, 4th, 2nd
                            Golden State 5th, 4th, 1st New Jersey 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
                            Clippers 3rd, 2nd, 1st Toronto 2nd, 1st, 1st
                            Sacramento 2nd, 2nd, 1st Cleveland 3rd, 3rd, 3rd

                            FINDINGS:
                            @ 8 mil you would be the 4th highest paid player on a Western Conference Playoff team OR an Eastern conference playoff team. You would be the 3rd highest paid player on a Western lottery or Eastern lottery team.

                            @10 mil you would be the third highest paid player on a Western Conference team either playoff or lottery. You would be the 3rd or 4th (3.5) highest paid player on an Eastern Conference Playoff team and 2nd or 3rd (2.5) highest paid player on an Eastern Conference lottery team.

                            @ 12 mil you would be the 2nd or 3rd (2.5) highest paid player on a Western Conference playoff team and the 3rd highest paid player on an Eastern Conference playoff team. You would be the highest or 2nd (1.5) highest paid player on a Western Conference lottery team and 2nd highest paid player on an Eastern conference lottery team.

                            OVERALL average : 2.974666(repeating)
                            Therefore, Bargnani gets paid like the 3rd highest paid player, not the highest or even the second highest paid player. Whether that means he should be/ or is the 3rd best player on our team is anyone’s opinion.

                            Okay, we’ve established that compared to the salaries of players on the other NBA teams Bargnani gets paid like the 3rd best/highest paid player. So who do we compare him to? I thought about comparing Bargnani to the 3rd best player on other teams, but that is pretty subjective, plus I haven’t seen enough of other teams to do so with any confidence. A more straight forward way would be to compare him to the 3rd highest paid player on every other team, but the variance in salary and position made those comparisons tricky and the findings dubious.

                            Instead I once again combed the rosters of every NBA team to find comparable contracts of PF/C. I came up with this list

                            Lamar Odom
                            Tyson Chandler
                            Nick Collison
                            Nenê (Does he only have 1 name, like Madonna?)
                            LaMarcus Aldridge
                            Marcus Camby
                            Emeka Okafor
                            David West
                            Anderson Varejao
                            Andre Blatche
                            Charlie Villanueva
                            Joel Pryzbilla
                            Mehmet Okur
                            Eddy Curry
                            Luis Scola
                            Chris Kaman
                            David Lee
                            Andris Biendrins

                            FUN FACT: Nick Collison is the highest paid player on this list, this year, @ 13.3 million. However, he is the lowest paid player on this same list next year when he makes only 3.3 million. Ouch!

                            I compared these players using per game stats, Per 36 Stats, and Advenced Metrics, here’s how Bargs did

                            @his current Salary he is 14th of 19
                            @ his avg. Salary he is 10th of 19
                            Compared to other players w/ 3yr contracts or greater he is 5th out of 12
                            Compared to other players on 4 yr or greater contracts he is 3 of 7

                            PER GAME
                            Games Played: tied for 9th w/ David Lee
                            Games Started: tied for 7th w/ David Lee
                            Minutes/Game: 2nd behind Aldridge
                            FGA: 1st (Aldridge 2nd)
                            FG%: 14th
                            3pt Attempts: 2nd behind Villanueva
                            3pt %: 3rd, behind Villanueva (1st), and Odom (2nd)
                            FT attempts: 2nd, behind Aldridge
                            FT%: 1st (West 2nd)
                            Rebs: 15th
                            Rebs: 14th
                            Tot. Rebs: 15th
                            Assists: 9th
                            Steals: 12th
                            Blocks 13th
                            TO: 2nd
                            Fouls: 13th
                            Points: 2nd, behind Aldridge
                            Age: 17th, only Blatche & Biedrins are younger @ 24



                            PER36
                            FGA: 1st
                            FG%: 14th
                            3PA: 2nd, behind Villaneuva
                            3pt%: 3rd, behind Villaneuva and Odom
                            FTA: 2nd(3rd), behind Nenê (2nd) Curry was actually first in this category but since he only played 7 games and averaged only 10 minutes per I removed him from most categories.
                            FT%: 1st, West 2nd
                            ORB: 18th, ahead of Villaneuva
                            DRB: 19th (aka dead last)
                            TRB: 19th (aka the opposite of first)
                            Assists: 11th
                            Steals: 16th
                            Blocks: Tied for 15th w/ Collison and Scola, ahead of only Curry (18th) and Lee (19th)
                            Turnovers: 4th (3rd if you don’t count Curry, behind only Blatche and Kaman)

                            Fouls: Tied for 18th (Last) with Aldridge. Found this really interesting, because you could argue that Bargs SHOULD foul more (aka be more aggressive on ‘D’) but then do you also have to say the same thing about Aldridge?

                            PTS: 1st ahead of Scola, Aldridge, West.

                            Advanced Metrics
                            PER: 7th, Aldridge (1st), Nenê (2nd) West (3rd)
                            TS%: 13th, Chandler (1st), Nenê (2nd), Collison (3rd)
                            eFG%: 14th, Chandler (1st) Nenê (2nd), Okafor (3rd)
                            ORB%: 18th, ahead of only Villanueva, Camby (1st), Chandler (2nd), Okafor (3rd)
                            DRB%: DEAD, Camby (1st), Pryzbilla (2nd), Chandler (3rd)
                            TRB%: LAST, Camby (1st), Chandler (2nd), Okafor (3rd)
                            Assist%: 11th Okur (1st), Odom (2nd), Lee (3rd)
                            Steal%: tied for 15th w/ Kaman. Blatche (1st), Biedrins (2nd), Nenê (3rd)
                            Block%: 14th, Camby (1st), Okafor (2nd) Kaman (3rd)
                            To%: 15th (5th best) behind Villanueva (1st), Okur (2nd), Aldridge (3rd) Scola (4th)
                            Usage%: (if you don’t count Curry) 1st, West (2nd), Aldridge (3rd)
                            ORtg: 13th, Chandler (1st), Nenê (2nd), Collison (3rd)
                            DRtg: 1st (read last-or tied for last w/ Curry if you don’t remove him)
                            OWS: 9th, Aldridge (1st), Nenê (2nd), Chandler (3rd)
                            DWS: 17th Odom (1st), West (2nd), Okafor (3rd), Aldridge (4th)
                            WS: 13th, Aldridge, Nenê, (1st), Chandler (2nd) West (4th)
                            WS/48: 14th, Chandler (1st) Nenê (2nd), Aldridge (3rd), West (4th)


                            Bargnani is great at FTA & %, 3PA & %, not fouling people, and no team relies on their players from this list the way that Toronto relies on Bargnani. He has a good PER and takes care of the ball* or does he?. The rest of his offensive stats are average-below average. Unfortunately he rebounds like a zombie grandfather and his defensive rating and win shares are also at the bottom of the list.

                            It is difficult to place him in this list because of the variance in his stats, but I think the most reflective statement would be that Bargnani is an average to below average performer in comparison to this group of players

                            The good news that despite be an average to below average player Andrea has an average to below average salary, meaning that we probably aren’t losing a lot of value right now and that he would still retain decent value on the open market.

                            The bad news is that unlike Amir’s contract which goes up in value year over year, Bargnani’s goes down in value UNLESS he improves his production/efficiency.

                            If you didn’t think Bargnani was going to improve significantly over the next 1-2 years then THIS OFFSEASON would probably be the best time to move him. (I’d love to say that I sent this report to Coangelo a week ago and take credit for the rumour, but that would be a lie.)

                            An Unlikely Ending
                            Despite being off the Barg’s train for a solid year and a half, this exercise has changed my opinion of Andrea, if only by a little. He is basically being paid as if he was the 3rd best player on another team and based on how he measures up against other 3rd best players he is only average or below average, Yet all these other 3rd best players have a couple of things Bargnani doesn’t: actual best and second best players on their roster to draw the attention of the defense or guard the tough assignment. Bargnani is being relied upon like he IS out best player despite his limited abilities and corresponding contract. Even though defenses have focused on him and we’ve asked him to shoulder a lot of the offensive load, he has shown some offensive improvement--albeit this is offset by his diminished rebounding and win shares. Bargnani is NOT a player to build around, however, I am more inclined to agree with those Bargnani “moderates” who say that in the right system/coach/teammates he could be very efficient/effective. I have a feeling that the stigma he carries as a former number 1 and the way the franchise has marketed him in the past will keep him from being that kind of a role player here in Toronto, but only time will tell.

                            Thank you for taking the time to read this article. Feel free to let me know what you think. Criticism is always welcome!

                            edit: it’s 4am and I need to sleep. I’ll make the links work and fix and spelling/grammar I can find in the morning, until then hope it’s readable!
                            "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                            "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                            "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                            Comment


                            • The point of the link was to provide a view that is not a rarity even in NY these days. I would actually have somewhat less regard for the NY viewpoint simply because they "actually" think they know most about the game...and these are the same people who hailed his signing a few years ago.
                              Since the trade for Melo, the roster in NY is not geared towards D'Antoni's style of play. Melo is one of the worst defensive players in the league. Look at the success DEN has had since he left and the comments from George Karl regarding why they have turned it around. D'Antoni took over NY with the understanding the franchise was in shambles and it would take a couple of seasons to compete. The whole plan was to clear the roster and sign FA's - unfortunately just because they built it the FA"s did not come.

                              Regarding Sarver and his spending: He took over before the 04-05 season and Shaq was traded for before the 08 playoffs. In the interim the payroll for the team was 05-07 was 119 mill, 82 mill & 71 mill (all in lux. territory I believe). JJ was traded Aug '05. The payroll was 119 mill. Far be it for me to grieve for ownership on spending large but I would think the spending was a bit overthetop. He then got a bit tired of a lack of results and decided to take Kerr's advice on direction change (Shaq & defense). Entitled dont you think as would ownership here (I prefer BC to stay more because of the timing re the pos. of the franchise)? Shaq was a horrible acquisition but shit happens. And I also understand DAntoni's frustration at the end. No question his input was non grata at the end ...something I believe he had quite a bit with BC.
                              I'm not sure where you got the money information but the salary in 2004-2005 was 28th in the league at $43.1M, 2005-2006 was 24th in teh league at $53.6M, 2006-2007 was 7th in the league at $65.4M, and 2007-2008 was 10th in the league at $70.7M. In D'Antoni's last year in PHX they did go in to the luxury tax by $2.9M and since they did not win, Sarver dismantled everything. How long did Porter and Kerr last there despite spending $76M in 2009? In 2010 they were back at the bottom of the league at 22nd in payroll with $64.8M and this year they are 19th with $65.7M.

                              Anyway where was I. My opposition to DAntoni as coach today with the Raps is simply that I am tired of the disregard and unaccountability afforded to the defensive side of the ball since BC has been here. I think he has seen the light but pieces of unsubtantiated rumor like this show up and start discussions like this. I just dont think the team is a fit for the old DAntoni (he hasnt changed yet). My idea of a fit would be someone like Adelman (probably a hard get).
                              I guess people do not care to discuss apples to apples. The roster in NY has never been geared towards D'Antoni's style of play. The closest it ever got was the start of this season. The trade for Melo ruined the progress that had been made. Again comparing apples to apples, if you look at the number of points given up per game compared to the league, then yes, they play little to no defense. In Phoenix, opponents PPG ranked 25th in 2008, 23rd in 2007, 28th in 2006, and 30th in 2005. This is to be expected considering opponents get many more FG attempts in the 7 second or less offense. However those same years if you consider their defensive rating (points per 100 possessions) they were 16th in 2008, 13th in 2007, 16th in 2006,and 17th in 2005. This is a little below the so called great defensive Sam Mitchell coached teams.

                              One last point: the judgement DAntoni showed when he took over the Knicks job considering the state of that franchise and the owner Dolan was much lacking. He chose it over the HC job in Chicago who were courting him fiercely. I believe it was known at the time they had the #1 overall in that draft (Rose). I think it may have been the money...not to begrudge him on that.
                              Nobody faults players for taking a larger contract, why the coach as you suggest? As we've seen time and time again, the coach usually takes the fall for players - very rarely is it the other way around. He most likely had to make a decision to go where he felt he would have the most success. Given Rose could not hit the 3 when he came out and was more of a scoring PG than a facilitator (and still is) plus the allure of bringing a winning team back to NY.... there are so many factors that go in to a decision like this it is tough to comment without walking in the other person's shoes.

                              Comment


                              • ezz_bee you should put a request in to get on payroll with this type of research. Nice work.

                                It is nice to have validation for the long held belief that he would be best suited as a 3rd option and is paid as such. He is not a franchise player and should not have the expectations on him from management or fans that he is one.

                                He is definitely unique and with the right people around him I am sure he could contribute to a winning team. I see a mature Ed Davis or Al Horford type at the 4, a Josh Smith type at the 3, an Arron Afflalo type (3 and D) at the 2, and Ray Felton, Gary Payton type at the 1.

                                The question remains will it be Toronto? I am really doubting it considering the type of players needed to cover his 'defeciencies'. Hopefully he could return assets or two to help the team moving forward.

                                Comment

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