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  • Jeff in Toronto:
    Hoopsworld is getting us excited with a report that Bargnani might be traded! I say ship out Colangelo, Triano and Bargnani and create a defence-first environment here in Toronto. The fans would love that.

    Bill Ingram:
    I guess so! Lots of Bargs questions this morning. Don't worry - of BC wants to deal him, there will be takers.

    Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Chat.asp?C...#ixzz1HuTLgu5f
    Jeff in Toronto wanting a defense-first environment need only look at Milwaukee.

    Sounds like he might have value around the league.

    Dan in :
    Hey Bill, I saw yesterday a potential rumor saying Andrea Barganani was available. Many of us were wondering why we even drafted him in the first place considering the type of player we already had in Bosh. What'd you suppose he'd net us in return?
    Bill Ingram:
    Lots of questions about that Bargnani rumor this morning, so let me answer a few here. First and foremost, Bargs is a very talented scorer. He doesn't do anything else extremely well, but he can score the ball, and in the NBA you need guys who can put the ball in the hole. The challenge with a guy like Bargnani (and Dirk Nowitzki and Carmelo Anthony and a long list of others) is that you have to surround them with guys who compensate. For instance, the Dallas Mavericks were at their best when defensive-minded players like Devin Harris and Josh Howard were around Dirk. This year they were better when Caron Butler was healthy because Caron was so tough on the defensive end. They replaced him with Peja Stojakovic, who has never played defense, and as a result the Mavs have looked mediocre at times.

    In the case of Bargnani, you have to surround him with defensive players who make up for his own lack of defense. Bosh isn't a defender, either, so you're right - that didn't make a lot of sense. Put him in Utah, where the Jazz played so well with Okur in the mix. AK47 will likely be gone, so it may be a moot point, but that's the kind of team that could use him. Devin Harris, Raja Bell, Kirilenko - all very good defenders - could support Bargs and just let him do this scoring thing.



    Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Chat.asp?C...#ixzz1HuTxD8lU
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Mar 28, 2011, 12:15 PM.

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    • Raptors_ wrote: View Post
      +1 totally agree with you there. Man i wish we had Chandler so we could have gotten rid of Bargnani. I don't understand why he doesn't grab 7+ rbpg, your a 7 footer for god sake.
      Have you ever had bone spurs in your ankle? Do you know what that feels like?

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      • Bargs will get traded, Raps will have no offense and you guys will all whine and bitch about how our team sucks and we shouldve kept Bargs.

        Then, Bargs will light us up and humiliate us every time we play against him.

        Haters gone hate.

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        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Sounds like he might have value around the league.
          Why is he comparing Andrea to guys like Dirk and Melo?

          Those guys are elite players and no disrespect to Andrea intedned, doesn't deseve the comparisons to these guys.

          I agree that you compensate for elite players like that but to say Bosh isn't a defender so that didn't make a lot of sense to pair them....? Bosh is a better player than Andrea so why are you trying to compensate for Andrea's shortcomings?

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          • Brandon wrote: View Post
            Nene's last name is Hilario.
            Technically, Nene doesn't have a last name. He legally dropped it in his 2nd or 3rd year in the league, but the league doesn't allow one name players, he still goes by Nene Hilario in the NBA. He did it because of the long standing tradition of Brazillian sports stars going by one name (Pele, Maradonna).
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • teoserio wrote: View Post
              Andrea will never be traded for his defensive skill... so: why here we are trying to show that he is not so good defender when tous-le-monde already know this?
              Because the point of this thread was to show the relative value of Bargnani's contract, in comarison to other players of his position, age, and pay. To get a sense of how far an NBA dollar takes you, I suppose.

              Regarding selling Andrea on these forums like he's a good 6th man to increase his trade value, I doubt that a GM will consider the opinions on a random NBA fansite when choosing whether or not to trade for a player. I think it's without any question that Andrea would make an excellent 6th man on a championship team. His unique skill-set demands that opposing teams adjust their game plan to take him into account. I would wager talent like that on the open market in today's NBA is equal in value to a couple of unprotected 1st round draft picks and a serviceable center.

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              • I would take a look at Scola Aldridge, Nene, and maybe Okafor. I really like Luis Scola the guy is very active on the glass and his defense is good. He would be a welcomed change in Raptorsland.
                We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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                • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  Yeah baby!

                  *please let this be true...please let this be true*

                  Comment


                  • Imagine what Bargs could do on a team like Orlando? A frontcourt of Howard and Bargs would be ridiculous.
                    @sweatpantsjer

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                    • Almost forgot..
                      Very Nice work Ezz Bee. You put a hell of a read together..
                      Its clear to see that we maybe should also look at keeping Bargnani. He is being played as a #1 option when he is really a 3rd-6th option. I'd like to see this team shuffle roles a bit. If BC can tell Bargnani that he isn't the #1 Option on this team anymore, that might do wonders. In the meantime i think Ed Davis and DeMar DeRozan should be getting majority of the plays run for them. I don't want to see Andrea getting traded away for nothing in return. If we can snag a possible high draft pick for this year or next years draft (I hear there is a ton of talent for next years draft maybe we should figure out how we can sneak in there early.) or a equal or greater player in return, then by all means do it. I would not try to trade him just because he can't rebound or play defense. Maybe its because he simply can't play at center. Which is a lame excuse since he is 7 feet tall. I would just glue him to the bench until he knows his new role.
                      We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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                      • Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
                        I would take a look at Scola Aldridge, Nene, and maybe Okafor. I really like Luis Scola the guy is very active on the glass and his defense is good. He would be a welcomed change in Raptorsland.
                        Looking at the numbers posted by ezz, and looking at how valuable those players are to their team, I doubt any of Aldridge, Nene or Okafor will ever be traded for Bargs. Scola is too lateral of a move to make it worthwhile for either team (look at the defensive numbers of Scola - not much better than Bargs. Ditto for Bargnani's offense vs. Scola's). For Bargnani to be traded for one of the listed players, given that his numbers have come up showing him to be average to below average on Offense, and near bottom on Defense, it's going to have to be for someone either already on their way out because they are either unsatisfied with their role or because of their age, or because their team is in full on rebuild build.. On that list, I only really see Chris Kaman and Anderson Varejao.

                        That being said, I think either one of Kaman or Varejao would be excellent and would love to have them play for TO.

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                        • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          Everyone knows he's not a true center so thank you once again for proving my point. Now I can include you in my argument as being just as confused about Andrea's role as management has been during his time here in Toronto.
                          Actually, people who looks for excuses "know" that Bargnani is not a true center. In today's NBA, there IS not true center. I've never once heard a valid argument that he isn't a center. He's 7 feet, really only defends well against centers, struggles defensively defending most PFs and is best on offense when defended by slow-footed centers who he can draw out of the paint.

                          On offense, he's certainly not a typical center, but that doesn't matter. Neither was/is Bill Laimbeer, Sabonis, Okur, Channing and many others. What matters most is what position you can defend, and that's center. The fact that he can't play team defense just means he's simply not a good center. But he's not good at any other position, either.

                          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          In most cases minutes played are a relavent indicator that a young player is developing or a proven player is performing. Andrea's minutes actually declined his second year if you can beleive it. What does that indicate. Mitchell had no INTENTION of playing Bargnani. If not for BC there's no way Mitchell pays Bargs 30+ his 3rd and 4th year. On to year 3-4 how often did you see Bargnani with the ball working on his in game skills. NEVER. He was a Bosh puppet all he did was stand at the three point line to create space for Bosh.
                          Bargnani's minutes decreased in his second year because he struggled so much. His shooting percentage dropped to below 40%. Coming up with your argument it is clear you didn't look at the games he played, but at the final stats. Mitchell kept Bargnani on a short leash because he wanted to make Bargnani focus, especially on defense. There were people that complain Mitchell had him on too short a leash, but the fact is that how much Bargnani played was basically in Bargnani's hands. He struggled with his shot and since he's a poor defensive player, if his shot isn't falling, he's pretty much useless.

                          As for his role with Bosh, I'm not quite sure why you are complaining. He was the second option and took more shots last season than any player on Boston, Utah and San Antonio. He was asked to play a role, which is exactly what a player is supposed to do, especially one who is not the best player on the team. You are complaining because he wasn't allowed to do anything he wanted on offense?

                          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          Your pretending his minutes were meaningful. Anyone whose watched his growth this year would admit his previous four year were a waste of development. Most young player aren't aren't imports from Italy who don't speak English. They aren't 7 footers who can play like a shooting guard.
                          Again, last year, Bargnani played 35 mpg (second most on the team) and took more shots than anyone on Boston, San Antonio and Utah. The previous year he played 31 mpg and still took the second most amount of shots on the team. The notion that he didn't play meaningful minutes can't be backed up by anything other than opinion.

                          The simple fact of the matter is that Bargnani probably has gotten a lot more chances because he was on Toronto, and for that you should be thankful. On a better team with a coach that demands defense, he would have been stapled to the bench a lot more. On San Antonio, Boston, Utah, the Lakers and numerous other teams with winning systems, Bargnani would have struggled to get any minutes, meaningful or not.

                          Besides, I really fail to see how you can play 35 minutes in a game and none of them can be meaningful.

                          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          It's not hard to shoot a high percentage when your being left wide open the majority of the time. It't not hard to see the floor well when your not being guarded.
                          Actually, it's still difficult to shoot a high percentage, otherwise a lot more players would do it. And one of the reasons Davis shoots a high percentage is because he takes good shots and knows when and where to shoots. The fact is that Davis is certainly not a liability on offense, as you claim, because he is so efficient on offense. If Davis shot a low percentage (like Evans, for example), you might have an argument, but since he doesn't, you don't.

                          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          HEY OPEN MAN SEE BALL GRAB BALL DUNK BALL. That's basically the extent of Ed's offensive skill. Unfortunatly, when the context changes to HEY GUARDED MAN DO SOMETHING WITH THE BALL. were screwed. Catch my drift.
                          Davis dunks the ball 18% of the time, and actually takes jumpers 34% of the time, which he hits 50% of.

                          http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR16.HTM

                          So your argument is actually not valid at all. Besides, what Davis does well is move without the ball. He has good hands and can get to the spots where he can receive the ball. These are skills a lot of players simply don't have. It takes a high basketball IQ to know where to go and where to be.

                          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                          Yea what type of flashes are reffering to open dunks? I think any basketball player if left wide open can finish a dunk. For a big man the jump shot is actually the hardest skill to learn. And id disagree for big men the easiest skill to learn is rebounding. See ball grab ball.
                          Again, your argument that he mostly dunks is completely incorrect, but Davis is often given the ball in the post (at least a few times a game) and is usually able to score on his man with a variety of post moves. His jumper is also pretty good from about 10 feet. The fact that he is shooting 50% on jumpers backs this up.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • bloodyhandedgod wrote: View Post
                            Try the Facebook page before siding with Robert Sarver.
                            Robert Sarver is a cheap ass.
                            LOL a hate Sarver Facebook page...with 30 fans!! Are you insinuating I am not up to speed on Sarvers's miserly habits? It's curious you did not mention the 119 mill. in salaries his second year as owner of the Suns....when Johnson was traded. btw, Is JJ worth his max. 100 mill.+ contract these days?

                            You must be/have been a rabid Suns fan who has followed them close enough and been very disappointed. Curiouser still that you dont mention BC as culpable in all that trade or player acquisition decision making.

                            Cant compete with your passion. It seems personal. One thing I shall agree on though is I dont like meddling owners except their right to set a budget.

                            And we'll just have to disagree on the up & down 3 pt. shooting style of basketball as being a sustainable and ultimately winning style in the NBA. It might work in the NCAA tournament...for a few games. Because ultimately when you need it most (and the team is a one trick pony) it will fail. I prefer a balance with a commitment to defence.

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                            • ceez wrote: View Post
                              Imagine what Bargs could do on a team like Orlando? A frontcourt of Howard and Bargs would be ridiculous.
                              I think it would pretty much look like it did with Rashard Lewis playing there in his prime seeing how Bargnani is pretty much a taller Rashard Lewis. What would the Raptors get in return? I'm not sure the Raptors would want what Orlando would be selling. There would have to be a third team involved.

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                              • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                                Combinations of things.

                                I admit he should be getting more rebounds that he is right now, but it's still the easiest skill for a big man in my opinion.

                                For Raptors his rebounding is a trade off. Since we use him at the 3 point line to open space for everyone else, he misses out on all offensive rebound opportunties. So where a traditional centre is down low battling for rebounds, Bargnani is sacrafising his presence for the other players around him. This could easily make up for the additional 3-4 rebounds a game that other bigs average.
                                Rebounding is a skill like any other. It's easy to do for a game or two, but doing it consistently over the course of a season is certainly not easy, as Bargnani can attest to. Rebounding takes consistent effort and focus. That itself is a skill that, unfortunately, Bargnani doesn't have. Acquiring a jumper simply takes practice. The difference is that rebounding is more of a mental skill and shooting is a physical skill. It's a lot easier to change a physical skill that a mental skill because the mental skill is part of your personality.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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