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  • Is it really a major problem? How many games have we lost as result of Andrea’s defense? All your point are fine but until you prove that there is a direct correlation between Andrea defending and the raptors loosing as far as I am concerned his offensive production far outweighs his defensive deficiencies. You can make the claim that because Amir only averages 8 points a game this lack of offensive production cost us much more victories than Andrea’s lack of defensive instincts did.
    hmm *looks at team record*

    Believe me if ED averaged 21.4 points we wouldn’t hear the end of it. You would be chalking him up for perennial All-Star games.
    ed davis would probably put up decent rebounding numbers, shoot at a higher percentage, and play or at least try to play defense atop of that offensive production. for arguments sake if your trying to say he puts up the same stats then i would see him in the same light as bargnani

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    • I like how all the Bargs haters are coming out the woodworks, just goes to show that if he doesn't shape up hes getting shipped out ASAP, and his time has ran up.
      NBADoppelgangers.tumblr.com

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      • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        Again my intention is not to back up that claim simply to reinforce optimism surrounding his future, something which you clearly don’t foresee. For example you can rave about hope for Amir based on hustle and heart, yet you’ll never give Andrea the benefit of the doubt for his excellent offense production.
        From my vantage point, you're not trying to reinforce optimism. You're trying to argue facts with your predictions. If you come to me and tell me that Keanu Reeves is a bad actor, and I tell you that he will one day be a great actor, but I really don't have anything to back up this claim, it's kind of a pointless argument, isn't it?

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        Is it really a major problem? How many games have we lost as result of Andrea’s defense? All your point are fine but until you prove that there is a direct correlation between Andrea defending and the raptors loosing as far as I am concerned his offensive production far outweighs his defensive deficiencies. You can make the claim that because Amir only averages 8 points a game this lack of offensive production cost us much more victories than Andrea’s lack of defensive instincts did.
        Well, the Raptors were last in the league in defense and in the middle of the pack in offense. And I"m not saying that Bargnani was the sole problem, but if a player is as bad a defender as Bargnani is, and the team is last in defense, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he was part of the problem. The fact that he was the only front court rotation player that is below average defensively throws up a lot of warning flags for me.

        As for how many games the Raptors lost because of Bargnani's defense, I don't know. How many games did they win because of his offense? Again, I don't know. They lost a hell of a lot of games and didn't win very many games, so either way it doesn't really work much in Bargnani's favour.

        The fact is, though, that good defense from your team's front court is incredibly important if you want to win on a consistent basis. And Bargnani is a very poor defender. In the playoffs, any team where Bargnani is playing a large roll will have a lot of trouble winning because teams exploit weaknesses like this.

        And just so you know, it's `lose', not `loose'. You lose a game. You don't loose a game.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        To Quote the Great Allen Iverson Practise? Who needs Practise!... This summer play pickup games with 8th graders for all I care go to Italian National team and focus on defense and effort.
        He's had five years in the NBA and who knows how many seasons before he joined the NBA. Why on earth is he just NOW realizing that he maybe needs to learn some defense? That's like a guy who goes out in the rain for a month straight before he realizes he might need an umbrella.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        Oh so it’s that simple, no wonder Demar can consistently hit a jumper now. Oh wait but what about Sonny? Since they both learned the easiest skill they should be equally efficient according to your logic. And how come Andrea who has a much better offensive game than Amir is shooting a much lower percentage? Your example is very random. Bruce Bowen was probably left wide open which would explain his 3 point shooting percentage. The entire league SHOULD be able to hit an open jumper consistently but IMO only about 50% can. For example Amir has proved to be able to knock down an open jumper, however, this not necessarily a skill merely a byproduct of being left open. The reason Amir has a more efficienct shooting percentage than Andrea is because he is GUARDED on the majority of his shots and not because Amir is more skilled offensively. A skill is to scorer while being defended. In hockey is you score into an open net they still count the goal but the skill is hardly evident.
        Both DeRozan and Sonny can hit an open jumper on a very consistent basis. Sonny's problem is that he takes too many shots he shouldn't.

        You mentioned that Amir didn't show the ability to hit an open jumper. I showed that not only did he show that ability, but it's an ability that is easily learned. You're the one that brought it up, not me. I just showed you that learning how to hit and open jumper and learning how to play good defense are not at all similar.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        As I mentioned before every player develops at their own pace. It’s also proven that it takes foreign players longer to adjust to the NBA for obvious reasons. And Andrea is still young.
        I'm not quite sure how it's "proven" that international players take longer to develop in the NBA. But Bargnani has been in the league for 5 years. And he's been a regular starter for the last 2.5 years. Players don't tend to make very big leaps under those circumstances. And while it COULD be that he might vastly improve his defense and rebounding, in 5 years he hasn't. If something happens over and over again for five years, without change, why do you think there will suddenly be a change? That's simply not logical.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        Believe me if ED averaged 21.4 points we wouldn’t hear the end of it. You would be chalking him up for perennial All-Star games.
        If Davis averaged 21.4 ppg while rebounding and playing the defense he did, he WOULD be a perennial All-Star. I'm not sure I see your point. I don't think Monta Ellis is a perennial All-Star and he scores more than Bargnani. The reason is because Ellis does nothing outside of score. He's a poor defender and would have trouble fitting in on a contender.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        Each one of your Bargnani posts is a critical one so don’t try calling me out now that’s baloney. I gave you an example obviously 25 and 10 is Howard territory but you just acknowledge you hold him to unfair standards and you would only stop critsizing him if he exceeded otherworldly expectations. For example why don’t we all set Amir up for failure as well lets set the bar at 20+ well never criticize him if he reaches this goal, but anything lower trade the bum.
        How do I hold him to unfair standards??? I've told you and others this before. I have the same standards for all players. I don't criticize Amir because he isn't a liability on either end of the floor and makes a positive impact consistently. Bargnani does not. He's a liability half the time he's on the court. How many times do I have to explain this? For my big men, I need them to defend, rebound and at least be effective on the offensive end of the court. This is the minimum of what I expect from any big man. I would be happy with Bargnani if he averaged 14 ppg, while grabbing 8 rpg and playing above average defense. This is what you guys don't seem to get. His scoring obviously doesn't impress me nearly as much as it does you.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        I wouldn’t feel foolish if he averaged 8 and 4 because then I can start reverting to the hustle heart effort tactics. They seem to be box score flavor of the year.
        If Bargnani hustled and exhibited heart, then that would make sense. Amir actually does.

        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
        Don’t bring up comments about me being someone’s gf and expect something kind in return.
        I didn't bring up the comment about his ex-girlfriend. He did. I simply repeated it. If he didn't want her talked about, he probably shouldn't have brought her up.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • e2thed wrote: View Post
          I like how all the Bargs haters are coming out the woodworks, just goes to show that if he doesn't shape up hes getting shipped out ASAP, and his time has ran up.
          To clarify for myself - can't speak for anyone else: I don't hate Bargnani. It actually pains me that this team does not have a supporting cast that could enjoy success WITH him. I love watching him play. The reality is it is easier to trade him to a team that already has the players to make both Bargnani and the team successful versus wait for the Raptors to get those type of players. All I can think of is Denver before and after the Melo trade.

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          • thank you Mr Grange...

            e2thed wrote: View Post
            I like how all the Bargs haters are coming out the woodworks, just goes to show that if he doesn't shape up hes getting shipped out ASAP, and his time has ran up.
            ...doesn't shape up? - dude we are wayyyyy past that...
            "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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            • footarez wrote: View Post
              I'm Bargnani hater.I admit he can score...and maybe he is good.Probably on a different team he would be even greater.But I don't like him.There is something wrong with so mobile and perimeter oriented and skilled center.In fact I have always wondered WHY they play him at center when he isn't?He has some advantage if covered by opposing centers but that isn't enough to put him at C.For me it is like to put James Johnson at pg and play him with derozan,weems,amir and davis...or something like that.I think you'd get my point.And after all the criticism he toke this season I am convinced now that it is better for him and for the team, to go elsewhere.And in a way even if we get scrubs for him they might better with the rest of the young guys on the team.As we witnessed this season he DOESN'T fit well with the players we have.A few good games doesn't excuse a season of loses.
              WHy on earth isn't he a center? He's 7 feet, 250 lbs and his only "strength" on defense is his ability to defend tall, back to the basket centers. I've never understood the argument that he's not a center. It makes no sense.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                WHy on earth isn't he a center? He's 7 feet, 250 lbs and his only "strength" on defense is his ability to defend tall, back to the basket centers. I've never understood the argument that he's not a center. It makes no sense.
                my only answer would be he's too "soft"

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                • Arsenalist wrote: View Post
                  He also said "I do things that are more complicated than rebounds and defence" which they edited out of the official videos.
                  Oh, that's simply not a good thing to say. Not at all.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                  • I would say most centers starting in the league are not prototypical. The hook shot is dead. Most guys don't have good back to the basket moves or the strength to back down defenders unless they have a mismatch. The key is they need to be able to defend and rebound. I don't care how they score or even if they score on offense. That's a bonus.

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                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I would say most centers starting in the league are not prototypical. The hook shot is dead. Most guys don't have good back to the basket moves or the strength to back down defenders unless they have a mismatch. The key is they need to be able to defend and rebound. I don't care how they score or even if they score on offense. That's a bonus.
                      I was a fan of the 80's Pistons and Bill Laimbeer. Laimbeer was certainly not a prototypical center, and I probably have a better post game than he had. But he rebounded and defended and did what he needed to do to win. A guy like Laimbeer is going to help you win far more than a guy like Bargnani is, I'm sorry to say.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

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                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Time to go Bargnani.

                        With the possibility of trading him, I was 50-50 a while ago, then 70-30, now 99-1.

                        Him at C is a joke. Him at PF may work - why not try, everything else has been tried. Him at PF over ED longterm is a ridiculous innuendo.

                        I hope no rival execs read this forum. A rugged C who has not been given much of a chance (think Zaza Pachulia), a prospect (think Jordan Crawford from ATL to WSH), and a high draft pick (SAC, MIN, NJ/UTA) would be great returns for Bargnani.
                        I want them to get a great talent back. I don't want to see them get three pieces. They already have enough question marks with potential to fill the rotation. They need to get back a starter. I'd like to see them take a run at OJ Mayo.

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                        • sleepz wrote: View Post
                          I completely agree. I just posted it in another forum but give the Timberwolves a call and offer up Andrea for their 1st round pick and some salary filler.

                          It's a weak draft with no clear cut stars and the Timeberwolves have not done well in their recent draft history. They'd be getting a former #1 who can score and is young and with Love grabbing boards Andrea would have a much better version of Reggie next to him.

                          No telling what Kahn might do.
                          I agree and i think bargnani could actually do pretty well on minnisota next to love ( leagues best rebounder). love would definetly make up for andreas poor rebounding.

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                          • Love/Bargnani would be a good combo. So too would Howard/Bargnani or Noah/Bargnani.

                            Minnesota is below cap. I'd be happy with their pick and Johnny Flynn or Wesley Johnson. I don't think Rubio will be on the table.

                            What the Magic have to sell the Raptors don't want.

                            The Bulls don't have anything too useful to offer for Bargnani and they already have Boozer.

                            Minnesota make might make more sense than anywhere. Memphis would come second in my opinion. Don't rule out Atlanta either. A shake up is on the horizon there.

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                            • "With Eddy D sounding like he's bulking up to play center next season I think that trade I mentioned on the trade board involving a certain someone the Pacers were after at the deadline makes a lot of sense."

                              APOLLO, I cant recall who they were after, which player are you talking about? Are you talking about Mayo?
                              Last edited by pesterm1; Thu Apr 14, 2011, 08:48 PM.

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                              • Indicative of where the #%}^} is this franchise going? If he's a 4, where do we play Ed or Amir? If we sign a "legit center", do Ed and Amir come off the bench? Even if you buy the two bigs theory, there's not room for all of these guys. Arghhh!

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