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  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Gabriele,

    I see you signed up a while ago, so you've hopefully read all the arguments we've had about Bargnani. There's obviously a difference of opinion.

    Bargnani has obviously played well for Benetton Treviso, but that's almost a different game. Kleiza dominated when he went back to Europe for a year, but that simply doesn't translate to the NBA. Lots of very talented players never found their niche in the NBA and had to play elsewhere.

    One of my problems with some Bargnani fans is the number of excuses they come up with to try and explain why Bargnani isn't playing the way they thought he would. At first they complained that Sam Mitchell was too hard on him and not giving him enough playing time, so Triano took over and that changed. Then when he still didn't perform up to expectations, they blamed Bosh for stifling his growth and preventing him from grabbing rebounds. Then Bosh leaves and Bargnani becomes the first option and his defense and rebounding actually get WORSE, despite guys like Amir, Reggie and Davis being asked to do the heavy lifting defensively. One excuse was that Bargnani was being played out of position, but that doesn't make sense since there was no real center for the Raptors this season. The other frontcourt players almost always took the best offensive big man and even in the zone, Bargnani wasn't in the middle. He was center in name only this season. Now it's that Bargnani would do better somewhere else.

    Sorry, I don't buy it. At some point you have to start realizing he is what he is. It's what he was when he came into the league and he's now a better version of it, but that's still what he is. The Raptors gave him far more opportunities than he would have found anywhere else in the league. He could have easily gone the way of Darko, stapled to a bench somewhere, because of his lack of defense and rebounding.

    As for Belinelli, I really felt he might be able to fit in somewhere. Unlike Bargnani, he has an all around game that doesn't really have any fatal flaws. He is a decent defender and a good shooter and playmaker. His biggest problem is his decision making, which is less a problem in New Orleans because he doesn't have the ball in his hands nearly as much. And Belinelli has always done better with consistent minutes and while starting. I'm pretty sure he would have done as well in Toronto if he'd been given the starting position.

    To me, at some point you have to wonder whether Bargnani is really worth all this trouble. He's a good scorer, but he's not elite. He does create mismatch opportunities, but he's such a poor defender that he can be exploited on the other end. And he's below average in every single aspect of the game other than scoring. And he's really not very efficient at that. \

    I've been called a hater by some of the more ignorant fans out there who simply don't understand where I'm coming from. I'm a Raptor fan, not a fan of individual players. What is more important is not what is best for the player but what is best for the team. What is best for Bargnani is not necessarily what is best for the Raptors.
    wow your really really precistent. why do you feel the need to keep repeating yourself. Do you just want to be heard. Everyone know your opinion with reguards to Bargnani why do you have to keep shutting people's opinion's down.

    Comment


    • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
      wow your really really precistent. why do you feel the need to keep repeating yourself. Do you just want to be heard. Everyone know your opinion with reguards to Bargnani why do you have to keep shutting people's opinion's down.
      I'm not shutting down other people's opinion. The previous poster gave her opinion and I responded to it, politely and respectfully. I was under the impression that was the point of the forum.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
      Follow me on Twitter.

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      • your under the impression that when somebody says something positive about bargnani its your job to manipulate thier words and state the exact oposite. If thats your impression of this form your doing an amazing job!

        Comment


        • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
          your under the impression that when somebody says something positive about bargnani its your job to manipulate thier words and state the exact oposite. If thats your impression of this form your doing an amazing job!
          Maybe I'm mistaken, but the poster stated their opinion and gave some suggestions of how the situation could be improved. I responded and gave my opinion why I believe otherwise. I don't see anywhere where I manipulated their words.

          If you would actually respond to the post, as I did, rather than the poster, then maybe you can join the discussion, rather than just tell me what I should and shouldn't be doing.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

          Comment


          • its not just this poster thats the thing its every poster who says something positive about bargnani. your arguments are always the same bad defense bad rebounding can score but his offense is useless because he gives up more on the defensive end etttc etcc you dont have to write fancy essays all the time....

            Comment


            • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
              its not just this poster thats the thing its every poster who says something positive about bargnani. your arguments are always the same bad defense bad rebounding can score but his offense is useless because he gives up more on the defensive end etttc etcc you dont have to write fancy essays all the time....
              The point of this forum is discussion. Period. That's what a forum is for. Discussion. That means someone says something and then someone else responds. Often times, people have differing opinions, and that's fine, as long as they are expressed respectfully and politely. There are quite a number of people who have differing opinions from me on Bargnani that I get along with fine.

              As for queengab, what exactly do you think the purpose of her post was? Do you believe that she was not looking for responses? You gave one. Why was it okay for you to respond, but not me? Is it because you already know my opinion of Bargnani? We all know YOUR opinion of Bargnani, but it didn't stop you from responding. We KNOW you agree with her opinion. Why respond? I responded for the exact same reason you responded.

              Again, if you'd like to actually discuss the topic, rather than me, I'd be happy. Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen, though.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

              Comment


              • just because you dont use profanity in your response doesnt mean they are politeful or respectuful. you have been directy responsible at least a few people that i know of being banned on this site because they have had to constantly defend your extremly negative critisim of bargnani. Just because you are more disciplin and dont break the rules when u post doesn't make u any less responsible. I never critisize people for having an opinion, i only critize them if they keep beating a dead horse. You should be able to respect those who actually beleive bargnani is good and you could show that respect by ignoring us as appose to always trying to prove a point. If you don't like the fact we support him then just ignore us. There are many other threads on this site to keep u busy.

                Comment


                • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                  just because you dont use profanity in your response doesnt mean they are politeful or respectuful. you have been directy responsible at least a few people that i know of being banned on this site because they have had to constantly defend your extremly negative critisim of bargnani. Just because you are more disciplin and dont break the rules when u post doesn't make u any less responsible. I never critisize people for having an opinion, i only critize them if they keep beating a dead horse. You should be able to respect those who actually beleive bargnani is good and you could show that respect by ignoring us as appose to always trying to prove a point. If you don't like the fact we support him then just ignore us. There are many other threads on this site to keep u busy.
                  mulit was a funny cat i kind of miss him

                  NSO,kingbargs ......... i never knew what the hell that meant.

                  Comment


                  • raptorsking wrote: View Post
                    mulit was a funny cat i kind of miss him

                    NSO,kingbargs ......... i never knew what the hell that meant.
                    loool bargs nicknames
                    kingbargs
                    BWO - bargs world order
                    NSN - no stats needed

                    and ya i agree we need multi backkk!!!

                    Comment


                    • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                      just because you dont use profanity in your response doesnt mean they are politeful or respectuful. you have been directy responsible at least a few people that i know of being banned on this site because they have had to constantly defend your extremly negative critisim of bargnani. Just because you are more disciplin and dont break the rules when u post doesn't make u any less responsible. I never critisize people for having an opinion, i only critize them if they keep beating a dead horse. You should be able to respect those who actually beleive bargnani is good and you could show that respect by ignoring us as appose to always trying to prove a point. If you don't like the fact we support him then just ignore us. There are many other threads on this site to keep u busy.
                      So I'm directly responsible for guys getting banned? Because they were defending Bargnani? So these people were not responsible for their own actions? Mmm, sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure that they weren't banned for defending anyone. They were banned for behaviour that was disrespectful to other posters. And I'm not the only one that had problems with them. Not by a long shot. I know quite a number of very good posters that were driven away by the juvenile antics of some of the guys that have been banned. And they are people on both sides of the Bargnani argument. It's a shame because this place used to be a lot better, but I find there are fewer intelligent discussions, now.

                      It seems to me it's not intelligent discussion that you want from here, anyway. I say that because you will so often avoid getting into a deep discussion on just about any subject. You seem to want to state your opinion and not have anyone dispute it. And if my criticizing Bargnani is beating a dead horse, then isn't your praising him doing the same thing? We already know your opinion. I also find it somewhat ironic that you are asking me to ignore any post that says something good about Bargnani, but you refuse to take your own advice and ignore my posts criticizing him.

                      When there was a Bargnani appreciation thread, I didn't post in it even once. I didn't feel it was appropriate. But to ask me to ignore EVERY post from ANYONE that says anything positive about Bargnani is going a little too far, don't you think? If you want to start another Bargnani appreciation thread, I promise I won't post in it.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

                      Comment


                      • Gabriele,

                        I see you signed up a while ago, so you've hopefully read all the arguments we've had about Bargnani. There's obviously a difference of opinion.

                        Bargnani has obviously played well for Benetton Treviso, but that's almost a different game. Kleiza dominated when he went back to Europe for a year, but that simply doesn't translate to the NBA. Lots of very talented players never found their niche in the NBA and had to play elsewhere.

                        One of my problems with some Bargnani fans is the number of excuses they come up with to try and explain why Bargnani isn't playing the way they thought he would. At first they complained that Sam Mitchell was too hard on him and not giving him enough playing time, so Triano took over and that changed. Then when he still didn't perform up to expectations, they blamed Bosh for stifling his growth and preventing him from grabbing rebounds. Then Bosh leaves and Bargnani becomes the first option and his defense and rebounding actually get WORSE, despite guys like Amir, Reggie and Davis being asked to do the heavy lifting defensively. One excuse was that Bargnani was being played out of position, but that doesn't make sense since there was no real center for the Raptors this season. The other frontcourt players almost always took the best offensive big man and even in the zone, Bargnani wasn't in the middle. He was center in name only this season. Now it's that Bargnani would do better somewhere else.

                        Sorry, I don't buy it. At some point you have to start realizing he is what he is. It's what he was when he came into the league and he's now a better version of it, but that's still what he is. The Raptors gave him far more opportunities than he would have found anywhere else in the league. He could have easily gone the way of Darko, stapled to a bench somewhere, because of his lack of defense and rebounding.

                        As for Belinelli, I really felt he might be able to fit in somewhere. Unlike Bargnani, he has an all around game that doesn't really have any fatal flaws. He is a decent defender and a good shooter and playmaker. His biggest problem is his decision making, which is less a problem in New Orleans because he doesn't have the ball in his hands nearly as much. And Belinelli has always done better with consistent minutes and while starting. I'm pretty sure he would have done as well in Toronto if he'd been given the starting position.

                        To me, at some point you have to wonder whether Bargnani is really worth all this trouble. He's a good scorer, but he's not elite. He does create mismatch opportunities, but he's such a poor defender that he can be exploited on the other end. And he's below average in every single aspect of the game other than scoring. And he's really not very efficient at that. \

                        I've been called a hater by some of the more ignorant fans out there who simply don't understand where I'm coming from. I'm a Raptor fan, not a fan of individual players. What is more important is not what is best for the player but what is best for the team. What is best for Bargnani is not necessarily what is best for the Raptors.
                        Hi to all,
                        I never thought about all this fuss with my words. Anyway thanks to tim w. I've often read your post and some arguments are good arguments it's true. But the only thing i don't understand and some raptors fan can understand is (for me is my opinion ok?) Why raptors draft 1st round pick andrea and then have not invested so much on him?. You saw how Dirk has become stronger over the years.

                        I tihnk andrea can trace the same carrier but toronto entourage didn't think the same. Yeah nba is very different respect to euro-league and italian basketball, it is focusing on the physical staff (especially for pf and c) amd andrea lack of physics prowess. Probably isn't a player for nba? I don't think so but can be an explanation. Do you know gregor fucka? A great italian pf that didn't go to nba for the poor physics. We can talking about nba basket that now isn't too basket, it's only a race for who can dunk too high or for who take 20 rbs a game. Is a game when now you can go to the bucket with for passes!!! Is not basket. Uoy say that the role is a an excuse. For me is the gist! Andrea isn't a great rebounder and defense pleayer. You coach (sam or jay) do a job to play andrea at maximun level.

                        You talk about one year of kleiza dominating euro basket with Olympiacos. For on e year? ut have you ever seen some matches of olypmiakos in euroleague? Olympiakos was a very good team in 2010 not only for kleiza and compare the kleiza carrier with bargs carrier isn't good. Some euro player in nba have great carrier. How many years did you take to see the progress of pau gasol? Do you rember drazen petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis?
                        Probably bargs don't become a superstar but you can't compare him with darko. If andrea improve defensive skills can be an all around player, and on offense eh has a series of weapons that any power forward haven't in NBA. Yeah he isn't a strong palyer and lack of determination but these are mentally qualities that you improve with the coaching stuff. I say this to you cause i saw him so many years that for me is impossible to realize.
                        Anyway i repeat for the good of toronto is better than andrea leaves canada...

                        Ciao
                        gabriele

                        ps: i'm a man like bo diddley say!
                        Last edited by queengab; Sun Apr 24, 2011, 09:00 AM.

                        Comment


                        • queengab wrote: View Post
                          Hi to all,
                          I never thought about all this fuss with my ords. Anyway thanks to tim w. I've often read your post and some arguments are good arguments it's true. But the only thing i don't understand and some raptors fan can understand is (for me is my opinion ok?) Why raptors draft 1st round pick andrea and then have not invested so much on him?. You saw how Dirk has become stronger over the years. I tihnk andrea can trace the same carrier but toronto entourage didn't think the same. Yeah nba is very different respect to euro-league and italian basketball, it is focusing on the physical staff (especially for pf and c) amd andrea lack of physics
                          I'm not sure I agree with this - at all. I have to respectfully disagree. Gherardini was brought over at the same time Bargnani was drafted, Sam Mitchell was fired for not aiding his development (i.e. putting him on the court through his many mistakes), Triano has very rarely held Bargnani accountable for his defensive play, Colangelo has taken much of his criticism for the coddling of Bargnani over the years, there have been grumblings of players treated to different standards, the emphasis has always been on getting better defensively but yet Bargnani continued to play despite his shortcomings and two years as one of the worst defensive team in the league, and he was handed the keys to the franchise this year at 25 years of age.

                          Maybe I misinterpreted. If I did could you tell me some of the things the Raptors could have done to better invest in him?

                          Comment


                          • tonnes of undeserved minutes have been invested on barg's development as a player. he's always had the skill set, but it's his confidence and self esteem that has held him back from becoming a player like dirk. you can't spoon-feed a player forever.

                            Comment


                            • Hi matt,

                              we have reached a good agreement. I don't discuss about andre defense perhaps think that raptors staff had comitted some errors with him. Also andrea have great faults but talking about crash of the raptors and and thinking only andrea can be an error. But for sure you know raptors much better than me. I repeat you. Andrea probaly had to be followed by a dedicated coach form the first year. But now it's late. And he can't become the fanchise raptor player for good or bad reason.
                              We can see the developments in the future.

                              Hi to all and good easter! (i'm not a catholic but in south italy is a very early tradition)

                              Buy
                              gab
                              Last edited by queengab; Sun Apr 24, 2011, 09:33 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Bargnani becomes the first option and his defense and rebounding actually get WORSE, despite guys like Amir, Reggie and Davis being asked to do the heavy lifting defensively.
                                Actually, when you compare Bargnani's net points differential per 48 minutes (-6.5) to Evans (-10.7), and considering Evans played a lot of his minutes paired up with Bargnani, a question should be whether Evans made Bargnani looked worse than he was?

                                I believe he did because the units Bargnani and Evans were on together were very ineffective.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Sorry, I don't buy it. At some point you have to start realizing he is what he is.
                                Bargnani is a very good offensive weapon who allows his teammates to be more effective offensively.

                                A few posters argue Bargnani is just a volume scorer. But curiously, when he is on the floor the team shoots at a a significant higher eFG% clip when he is on the floor than when he is not (50.1 vs 47.6). Even more curious is Bargnani's own eFG% is 48.0 and thus his teammates shoots at an approximate 50.8 effective clip when he is on the floor (I used 1/4 to weight Bargnani's contribution).

                                I then looked at Ed Davis, a player with an excellent 57.6 eFG%. But curiously, the team shoots at a higher eFG% when he is off the floor than when he is on the floor (49.7 vs 48.3). If I do the same calculation, but with a 1/8 weight for Davis' contribution, his teammates shoots at an approximate 47.0 effective rate when he is on the floor.

                                The question to me is how much the presence of Bargnani on the floor helps his teammates?

                                There is a cost of having Bargnani on the defensive end regardless of who else is playing with him, I think we all agree to this. But I strongly believe it would be a mistake to trade Bargnani at this time when the Raptors have one (Amir Johnson) or two (Ed Davis) who could be effective with Bargnani.

                                I am not suggesting the Raptors should build around Bargnani but rather, since they already have pieces which may fit well together, why not give them a test drive?

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