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  • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    You mean that game the day before Bargnani defended Lebron for large parts of the game?
    Yes, Bargnani did defend LeBron for some of the game (I wouldn't say large part). That was the only time Bargnani seemed to have purposely defended a better player.

    Either way, the real point of my argument is that Bargnani (whether by design or not) did not defend the better front court player in most games. And it just so happens that most of those lesser front court players are center. So if ANYONE can explain to me how he'll look better defensively playing PF, where there are far more good scorers, then I'd love to hear it.
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    • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
      Ah, But FTA/2 doesn't really work for precise calculation as there were 'and 1' plays. I get to a high 40's (and if we are even one count wrong here we are totally screwed!) I can look at individual plays in Synergy, but I have to look at each player to see who they defended, I cannot look at the attacker and count who defended him, unfortunately it's listed only one way. So to get a more precise count, I'd have to look at every play and list them, and that's a lot of work (certainly considering how few people are convinced by research the last time I did something like that...) while I still cannot see who Synergy had as a defender that play.
      I've got him with 46 Possessions on FGA and TOs.
      Add in 11 Free Throw attempts.

      No this isn't exact, but its close enough.

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      • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
        As I tried to explain, but maybe not good enough, the count is not for total possessions, but the possessions where that player ended the possession. So I do not have Lopez on the floor for only 44 possessions; those are about the number of possessions where the possession ended with him.
        And my point is that even when Lopez didn't end that possession, he was still being defended by someone. If he was being defended well, he might not end up with a shot attempt or even get the ball. My buddy defends me better than anyone, and I end up getting fewer shots or even touches, but you shouldn't discount the possessions I don't get the ball, because I don't get the ball because of his good defense.
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        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
          So if ANYONE can explain to me how he'll look better defensively playing PF, where there are far more good scorers, then I'd love to hear it.
          That has never been part of my argument (on this subject) and nor has it been the argument of some others, like Joey. All we argue is the statement made that 'Bargnani usually defends the weaker player' (mostly me) and the argument (this is mostly Joey) that he purposely defended the weaker player (probably because he was somehow the weaker defender).

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          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
            Yes, Bargnani did defend LeBron for some of the game (I wouldn't say large part). That was the only time Bargnani seemed to have purposely defended a better player.

            Either way, the real point of my argument is that Bargnani (whether by design or not) did not defend the better front court player in most games. And it just so happens that most of those lesser front court players are center. So if ANYONE can explain to me how he'll look better defensively playing PF, where there are far more good scorers, then I'd love to hear it.
            Well I'll state for upteenth time, that I am NOT arguing this point. And NEVER was.
            I've stated this in almost every single one of these posts.

            My point was simply to get to the bottom of your argument that "Bargnani always guards the weaker player."
            I'd heard you use it on a number of occasions and I just didn't feel it was accurate of you to be saying it in the way that you did.

            "..is that Bargnani did not defend the better front court player in most games. And it just so happens that most of those lesser front court players are center."

            This is what I was looking for you to acknowledge. He was just covering his man.

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            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
              And my point is that even when Lopez didn't end that possession, he was still being defended by someone. If he was being defended well, he might not end up with a shot attempt or even get the ball. My buddy defends me better than anyone, and I end up getting fewer shots or even touches, but you shouldn't discount the possessions I don't get the ball, because I don't get the ball because of his good defense.
              I know that is what you argue, and I already tried adressing it in an earlier post. I'll add this: if I'm correct you say yourself Bargnani matches up better with Bargnani because of his size. And I agree. In the possessions I did watch, Johnson e.g. could not defend him well at all. Based on what you say yourself "if he was defended well, he might not end up with a shot attempt or even get the ball." Considering Bargnani is the better matchup and Johnson could not handle him it does not make much sense that Lopez would get more shot opportunities per minute against Bargnani (in fact the other way round would be more logical).

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              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                And my point is that even when Lopez didn't end that possession, he was still being defended by someone. If he was being defended well, he might not end up with a shot attempt or even get the ball. My buddy defends me better than anyone, and I end up getting fewer shots or even touches, but you shouldn't discount the possessions I don't get the ball, because I don't get the ball because of his good defense.
                Let's also not forget that I provided 'the count' as a somewhat rough indication to counter the statements made by you that "Bargnani barely defended Lopez" and that it "was almost exclusively Amir and Davis". It was not meant in any way to say that Bargnani defended Lopez more or for the largest part of the game. It was, I emphasize, only to counter 'barely' and 'almost exclusively'. If I wanted to say anything more than countering this extreme statement I would have researched more before saying anything or not have said anything at all. But for this argument, rough indications served the purpose well enough (by a large margin) in my view.

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                • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                  I know that is what you argue, and I already tried adressing it in an earlier post. I'll add this: if I'm correct you say yourself Bargnani matches up better with Bargnani because of his size. And I agree. In the possessions I did watch, Johnson e.g. could not defend him well at all. Based on what you say yourself "if he was defended well, he might not end up with a shot attempt or even get the ball." Considering Bargnani is the better matchup and Johnson could not handle him it does not make much sense that Lopez would get more shot opportunities per minute against Bargnani (in fact the other way round would be more logical).
                  Teams tend to isolate Bargnani on defense, because he's such a weak defensive player, so Lopez could end up getting more shots by design when Bargnani is defending him. I understand your point, but hopefully you understand mine. Whether Bargnani defended Lopez 1/3 of the time or 1/5 of the time, the point is that Bargnani, being the center and the only real one on the roster at the time, should have defended Lopez at least 3/4 of the time. It seemed to me in that game, as well as numerous other ones, that Bargnani was purposely hidden on defense as much they could. And he still was a liability. Not a good sign.
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                  • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                    Let's also not forget that I provided 'the count' as a somewhat rough indication to counter the statements made by you that "Bargnani barely defended Lopez" and that it "was almost exclusively Amir and Davis". It was not meant in any way to say that Bargnani defended Lopez more or for the largest part of the game. It was, I emphasize, only to counter 'barely' and 'almost exclusively'. If I wanted to say anything more than countering this extreme statement I would have researched more before saying anything or not have said anything at all. But for this argument, rough indications served the purpose well enough (by a large margin) in my view.
                    Fair enough.
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                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Teams tend to isolate Bargnani on defense, because he's such a weak defensive player, so Lopez could end up getting more shots by design when Bargnani is defending him. I understand your point, but hopefully you understand mine. Whether Bargnani defended Lopez 1/3 of the time or 1/5 of the time, the point is that Bargnani, being the center and the only real one on the roster at the time, should have defended Lopez at least 3/4 of the time. It seemed to me in that game, as well as numerous other ones, that Bargnani was purposely hidden on defense as much they could. And he still was a liability. Not a good sign.
                      A couple of things:

                      - As showed by Pruiti (and also supported with statistics by me) Bargnani's individual defense wasn't that bad at all. The problem was his team defense (according to Pruiti) and as far as I know you've agreed with this. So, isolating Bargnani would not be the best way for the opposite team to attack Bargnani's defensive weaknesses. In fact, they'd better isolate someone else because Bargnani would not provide the help needed (and as we all know from watching the Raptors help is needed a lot of times!). On the other hand if they isolate Bargnani, they would attack him at his 'best' defensive skills, while also allowing the better help defenders to play help defense.

                      - If teams target Bargnani, wouldn't they constantly be looking to create a situation where there best frontcourt player matches up with Bargnani? Considering how bad our team defense and rotations are, they would succeed at this. If that were true, wouldn't mean that Bargnani was defending the best frontcourt player a lot of the time.

                      - If teams target Bargnani wouldn't he be involved in more than average of the defensive plays? They would target him, so wouldn't he be more often the defensive player on the end of a possession? But if you look at the Synergy stats (and these are stats anyone can calculate using the publicly available stats on synergy) Bargnani was involved on 9,1 defensive possessions per 36 minutes, Davis on 8,7 and Johnson on 9,8.
                      Last edited by Soft Euro; Wed Sep 7, 2011, 05:05 PM.

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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        It seemed to me in that game, as well as numerous other ones, that Bargnani was purposely hidden on defense as much they could. And he still was a liability. Not a good sign.
                        On a side note, if you are right and he was purposely hidden on occassion, we should be very glad we got rid of Triano because that is terrible coaching. Against the taller and stronger offensive players Bargnani matches up much better, certainly on post defense. Davis and Johnson have a lot of trouble covering these guys and while Johnson has better post defense stats (0,85 ppp), Davis is giving up a lot in the post (0,99 ppp compared to 0,89 by Bargnani). Having Bargnani match up with these players and allowing the others to be the help defender (considered by most to be much better help defenders) would be the far superior defensive strategy in my view.

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                        • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          A couple of things:

                          - As showed by Pruiti (and also supported with statistics by me) Bargnani's individual defense wasn't that bad at all. The problem was his team defense (according to Pruiti) and as far as I know you've agreed with this. So, isolating Bargnani would not be the best way for the opposite team to attack Bargnani's defensive weaknesses. In fact, they'd better isolate someone else because Bargnani would not provide the help needed (and as we all know from watching the Raptors help is needed a lot of times!). On the other hand if they isolate Bargnani, they would attack him at his 'best' defensive skills, while also allowing the better help defenders to play help defense.

                          - If teams target Bargnani, wouldn't they constantly be looking to create a situation where there best frontcourt player matches up with Bargnani? Considering how bad our team defense and rotations are, they would succeed at this. If that were true, wouldn't mean that Bargnani was defending the best frontcourt player a lot of the time.

                          - If teams target Bargnani wouldn't he be involved in more than average of the defensive plays? They would target him, so wouldn't he be more often the defensive player on the end of a possession? But if you look at the Synergy stats (and these are stats anyone can caculate using the publicly available stats on synergy) Bargnani was involved on 9,1 defensive possessions per 36 minutes, Davis on 8,7 and Johnson on 9,8.
                          I think Bargnani is a decent defender in certain situations, against certain types of players, but I don't believe he's a good all around one on one defender. Not from what I've seen from him the last five years. He doesn't move his feet well, doesn't anticipate well, gives up position too easily and doesn't box out very well.

                          As for isolating Bargnani, all I know is what I've seen and what I've seen was Bargnani obviously being isolated on defense on a number of occasions. It was not always for his man to go one on one, but for him to be the help man, as you suggest. Not all teams would do it and it wasn't all the time, but it happened enough that it became obvious what the plan was. I really have no idea whether Bargnani would be considered the defensive player at the end of the possession, but he's certainly involved.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                            On a side note, if you are right and he was purposely hidden on occassion, we should be very glad we got rid of Triano because that is terrible coaching. Against the taller and stronger offensive players Bargnani matches up much better, certainly on post defense. Davis and Johnson have a lot of trouble covering these guys and while Johnson has better post defense stats (0,85 ppp), Davis is giving up a lot in the post (0,99 ppp compared to 0,89 by Bargnani). Having Bargnani match up with these players and allowing the others to be the help defender (considered by most to be much better help defenders) would be the far superior defensive strategy in my view.
                            I think that having Davis and Amir try and match up against Lopez was a bad idea, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Triano was terrible. He did what he could given the tools he had. For the most part, Bargnani didn't have to play the better offensive player and would have struggled mightily if he had to. There were countless games when Bargnani got killed by his man, one on one, so it's not as if sticking him on the good offensive front court player would have been a good strategy.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              I think that having Davis and Amir try and match up against Lopez was a bad idea, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Triano was terrible. He did what he could given the tools he had. For the most part, Bargnani didn't have to play the better offensive player and would have struggled mightily if he had to. There were countless games when Bargnani got killed by his man, one on one, so it's not as if sticking him on the good offensive front court player would have been a good strategy.
                              I already adressed most points I don't agree with and you probably know I don't think Bargnani got killed more than let's say Davis who certainly has defensive talent but also had a lot of matchups he really struggled with.

                              In my view, where we got really killed on the defensive end was in situations where we faced movement, be it by playermovement or ballmovement. When we had to close out on shooters as a result of this we did a terrible job; that just did not seem to be a part of the game on some (most?) nights. Bargnani is really bad at this (he was probably staying close to the rim so he could get the rebound!). When he has to do anything other than on ball defense, just like it is with rebounding, his anticipation is really terrible. But this defending when there was movement (and there needs to be more anticipation) was a weakness not just of him, but for the whole team. If there is one thing on the defensive end where Dallas was much better than us (and which constitues a large part of the possessions) that I'll be watching to see if Casey impacts our defense it is that.

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                              • I think the Raps have been lacking a true defensive presence for so long, its only when they get a real defensive presence then they will see exactly what has been out of place on the current/recent roster.

                                I'm not talking one or two games. I'm talking a season where teammates can get adjusted and be confident in one another and coaches don't need to hide players.

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