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  • Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    Who is player B? Similar stats to Bargs, but missing several PPG.
    Player A is Brook Lopez. Player B is Bargnani (the one with fewer RPG- not PPG).

    And it's a perfect example of how these surface stat comparisons mean very little. First of all, the fact that he was rumoured in talks doesn't mean Orlando would agree to it. I don't think anyone would take Lopez and a couple of mid to low first round picks for Howard. Not unless you were absolutely desperate.

    Secondly, Lopez plays defense and has shown that he can rebound (unlike Bargnani). And I don't think ANYONE thought his rebounding numbers last year were acceptable, and it's probably one of the main reasons his reputation around the league plummeted. And still I think every team would still take him over Bargnani because, as I said, he's not a one-dimensional player.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Player A is Brook Lopez. Player B is Bargnani (the one with fewer RPG- not PPG).

      And it's a perfect example of how these surface stat comparisons mean very little. First of all, the fact that he was rumoured in talks doesn't mean Orlando would agree to it. I don't think anyone would take Lopez and a couple of mid to low first round picks for Howard. Not unless you were absolutely desperate.

      Secondly, Lopez plays defense and has shown that he can rebound (unlike Bargnani). And I don't think ANYONE thought his rebounding numbers last year were acceptable, and it's probably one of the main reasons his reputation around the league plummeted. And still I think every team would still take him over Bargnani because, as I said, he's not a one-dimensional player.
      The Magic will be desperate though.

      The Nets will likely be the only team that can take Turk in any deal without adding salary to the Magic beyond this year.

      The Magic have amnestied Arenas and sending out Turk and trading Howard leaves them with $25M in payroll for next year.

      The Magic automatically become the worst team in the league.... worse than Toronto, worse than the Bobcats hands down.

      The 2012 draft is going to be deep. Their own pick will push for a top pick in 2012. Houston's will be around 15-20 and the New Jersey's will likely be around 20-25. In a deep draft, three first round draft picks is a very good thing.


      Given the Magic's choices at this time, I think it is a good deal and the one that brings them back to relevancy the fastest.

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      • Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
        Yikes man ... yes, he had a horrible supporting cast. Not their 'fault', not his either. How many games would the Raps have won last year with Dirk starting in place of Bargs? 5 more? 10 at most ... and he was the MVP of the NBA finals - with an amazing supporting cast to cover up his many shortcomings as a complete basketball player.
        You think Dirk getting 10 more wins is nothing? With Dirk, the team would have vied for a playoff spot. With Bargnani they were one of the worst teams in the league. You replace Bargnani with Dirk on that "amazing" team and they would be lucky to win 47 games!

        Does that 47 games sound familiar? It's the same number that The Raptors were able to win with Bosh and a supporting cast that wasn't nearly as good as the supporting cast Dirk has right now. So I can't imagine what the Raptors would have to surround Bargnani with to reach the same level as Dallas.

        And while Dirk certainly has shortcomings, he's not a liability. In these discussions about Bargnani, why is this fact always brushed under the rug? Bargnani is a LIABILITY at least half the time he's on the court. He does NOTHING outside of scoring to help the team. NOTHING. He grabbed half a rebound more than a guy 8 inches shorter than him (I said 6 before, but I miscalculated)!!!!!!
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        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          The Magic will be desperate though.

          The Nets will likely be the only team that can take Turk in any deal without adding salary to the Magic beyond this year.

          The Magic have amnestied Arenas and sending out Turk and trading Howard leaves them with $25M in payroll for next year.

          The Magic automatically become the worst team in the league.... worse than Toronto, worse than the Bobcats hands down.

          The 2012 draft is going to be deep. Their own pick will push for a top pick in 2012. Houston's will be around 15-20 and the New Jersey's will likely be around 20-25. In a deep draft, three first round draft picks is a very good thing.


          Given the Magic's choices at this time, I think it is a good deal and the one that brings them back to relevancy the fastest.
          Ya, I wouldn't be shocked if they took the deal, either. I do think a team like Golden State will be able to offer a better deal. If Boston hadn't trade Jermaine O'Neal already, they could have offered ROndo and O'Neal + picks. Atlanta could offer them some nice players, too (Horford and Williams?). I'm surprised the Clippers didn't get more involved.

          Still, you're right that there is an air of desperation for the Magic.
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          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
            Ya, I wouldn't be shocked if they took the deal, either. I do think a team like Golden State will be able to offer a better deal. If Boston hadn't trade Jermaine O'Neal already, they could have offered ROndo and O'Neal + picks. Atlanta could offer them some nice players, too (Horford and Williams?). I'm surprised the Clippers didn't get more involved.

            Still, you're right that there is an air of desperation for the Magic.
            With Howard unwilling and from a money perspective better off not signing an extension, teams won't send off best assets with no guarantee.

            Paul is a good example with GSW and LAC. GSW would not let go of Curry. LAC would not include Gordon.

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            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              With Howard unwilling and from a money perspective better off not signing an extension, teams won't send off best assets with no guarantee.

              Paul is a good example with GSW and LAC. GSW would not let go of Curry. LAC would not include Gordon.
              I heard that the Clippers wouldn't let go of Gordon, but I had read Curry was offered. A deal of Curry, Udoh and a couple of draft picks would be better than what the Nets can offer, in my opinion. Maybe throw in Biedrins, who they might be able to turn into something. Then Golden State can bid on Billups and they've got a pretty decent team (although I'm not big fans of Ellis or Lee).
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              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                I heard that the Clippers wouldn't let go of Gordon, but I had read Curry was offered. A deal of Curry, Udoh and a couple of draft picks would be better than what the Nets can offer, in my opinion. Maybe throw in Biedrins, who they might be able to turn into something. Then Golden State can bid on Billups and they've got a pretty decent team (although I'm not big fans of Ellis or Lee).
                Curry was not offered without assurances of extension. That is why GSW went nuts for Tyson Chandler for an afternoon.

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                • Superman will only sign with Brooklyn, Dallas or the Lakers. I expect the Lakers to move Bynum, who could be a superstar greater than any in the 2012 draft, for him soon. The Brooklyn tampering issue probably precludes him going there and anyway they don't have much to offer. Dallas has nothing to offer.

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                  • Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
                    PPG is how you win a basketball game, scoring more points than the opposition. Yes, defence is a paramount concern - but you still need to manufacture lots of points, in lots of scenarios, on lots of nights ... that's pretty big in the scheme of things, if you wanna win.
                    So true. That's why the Phoenix Suns won all those championships the past 6 years.

                    I'm not really interested in what the writer points out, where he doesn't speak with a high level of familiarity with the team and their roster. "worst defender and the most pathetic rebounder for his size" ... source that 'fact'. Might as well say, "Everyone else is like a billion times better than him". Just annoying that a publication like ESPN puts out this kind of rabble.
                    Bargs is a terrible defender. He's also the most pathetic rebounder for his size, probably of all time. These ARE facts. A 7 footer who averages 6-ish rebounds is pathetic. There's no other way around that.

                    Bargnani is a 1-dimensional player ... and he is elite in that dimension. You need a balance of elite talent to be a contender. So the answer is to keep the elite talent when you have it, and find other pieces that balance the roster (hello Ed, hello Jonas).
                    He's not elite. Elite means you're the best, which he isn't. He's just good. If elite were a 10 out of 10, Bargs would be closer to 7 out of 10.

                    Using amnesty on Bargs would be stupid though since we could get something back for him.

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                    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Yes, Sacramento values scoring, which is not surprising considering they are a lottery team that hasn't been to the playoffs in years and need to make money for their owners who don't have a lot.

                      While I'm obviously no fan of THornton (and believe that Sacramento is going to regret offering that contract), doesn't it worry you that a player who is 6 inches shorter than Bargnani was able to get eerily similar stats, including nearly matching him in the rebounding department? And that player is not even close to considered an All-Star. Imagine if Thornton just averaged a rebound or 2 more? Hey, if Bargnani can conceivably do it, why not Thornton?

                      This is my whole point about people bringing up these meaningless, surface stats and pretending they mean more than they do. Averaging 21 ppg in the NBA is definitely an accomplishment, but too many people seem to overvalue it, especially when it's done on a bad team. Someone I've brought up as an example before is Tony Campbell. Another guy who could score on a bad team.

                      See, what people who overvalue scoring seem to forget is that the players who score on good teams, are actually able to do other things to help their team, as well. It's an INCREDIBLY important aspect that never seems to get mentioned. That's why they get the minutes and shots they do. Stick Marcus Thornton on Mavericks and he gets 10 mpg. If that. Why? Because good teams already have scorers. And those scorers do other things other than score. So a guy like Thornton or Bargnani are simply not nearly as valuable as they are on a bad team, who just needs someone to fill up the score sheet.

                      There's a reason why a guy like Al Harrington scores and plays less the better the team he is on. Why an excellent scorer, like Corey Maggette, can score nearly 20 ppg for Golden State, yet be given away for cap space and why, despite his ability to score on a team that desperately needed scoring (Milwaukee), he averaged the fewest mpg in 10 years and barely lasted a year before being shipped off to another lottery team.
                      Sure.

                      I just posted factual information about Marcus Thornton coz you were mis-informing us ("The first player is a restricted free agent who is getting almost no interest from around the league."). Oh and he pretty much averaged 25pts in NO when CP3 was injured.

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                      • tbihis wrote: View Post
                        Sure.

                        I just posted factual information about Marcus Thornton coz you were mis-informing us ("The first player is a restricted free agent who is getting almost no interest from around the league."). Oh and he pretty much averaged 25pts in NO when CP3 was injured.
                        What do you mean "sure"? Is that the extent to which you can debate the facts I presented?

                        At the time I posted my comment, I hadn't read that he'd gotten a contract offer. For that I apologize, but it doesn't exactly change my argument. The teams that had interest in him were lottery teams. Not surprising.

                        And I ALREADY stated that Thornton averaged pretty much the same stats the previous season when he got minutes. But the fact is that even when he was scoring all those points, it didn't help New Orleans play much better. The team went 9-19 in games he played 30+ mpg.

                        And quite frankly, I'd rather have Thornton than Bargnani because at least THornton's poor defense doesn't hurt as much because it's on the wing and not in the middle.

                        Please explain to me how Bargnani is any different from Corey Maggette, Marcus Thornton, Al Harrington, Tony Campbell or one of the other many one dimensional scorers whose minutes and shots decreased the better the team they were on? How is he any different from an Orlando Woolridge?
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                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          What do you mean "sure"? Is that the extent to which you can debate the facts I presented?

                          At the time I posted my comment, I hadn't read that he'd gotten a contract offer. For that I apologize, but it doesn't exactly change my argument. The teams that had interest in him were lottery teams. Not surprising.

                          And I ALREADY stated that Thornton averaged pretty much the same stats the previous season when he got minutes. But the fact is that even when he was scoring all those points, it didn't help New Orleans play much better. The team went 9-19 in games he played 30+ mpg.

                          And quite frankly, I'd rather have Thornton than Bargnani because at least THornton's poor defense doesn't hurt as much because it's on the wing and not in the middle.

                          Please explain to me how Bargnani is any different from Corey Maggette, Marcus Thornton, Al Harrington, Tony Campbell or one of the other many one dimensional scorers whose minutes and shots decreased the better the team they were on? How is he any different from an Orlando Woolridge?
                          Im not sure why youre being all confrontational, I just initially commented on the info you were giving out about Thornton not getting interest from other teams.

                          I didnt even comment on the Bargnani part. Dont really want to comment on that anymore since we've already gone over that in the Everything Bargnani thread numerous times before.

                          If you can point out exactly where in my initial comment that i said anything about Bargnani, then id gladly respond.

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                          • tbihis wrote: View Post
                            Im not sure why youre being all confrontational, I just initially commented on the info you were giving out about Thornton not getting interest from other teams.

                            I didnt even comment on the Bargnani part. Dont really want to comment on that anymore since we've already gone over that in the Everything Bargnani thread numerous times before.

                            If you can point out exactly where in my initial comment that i said anything about Bargnani, then id gladly respond.
                            Sorry. I thought the "sure" comment was being dismissive.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • Bendit wrote: View Post
                              That 30% is the killer.
                              Don't tell that to DeRozan as he shoots a higher percentage of his shots from that range (against a lower percentage).

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                              • Oh, and you know who has a terrible shot selection? That's Nowitzki. He shot 39% of his shots from 16-23 feet. That's an amazing 30% more than Bargnani. Wow: using stats in isolation just to prove any opinion is fun.

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